The Hidden Scale Behind All Communication

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Sometimes you want to talk about Bessie the cow.

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Like, hey, have you seen Bessie? Did she wander

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off again? Yeah. Right? We got to call Bessie

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home. That's right. And you don't want to be

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talking about assets. Hey, did you see my asset?

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Right? One of my assets wandered away. Yeah.

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You want to know which one. If you're talking

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to an animal rights activist, you're going to

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go in a different direction. And the highest

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level might be conscious being. Right. Right?

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Which Bessie is also a conscious being, but you're

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not going to talk about conscious beings to an

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investor. And you're not going to talk about

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assets and wealth to PETA. Welcome to Making

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Yourself Clear. I'm Patrick. I'm Chris. Today

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we're going to talk about the hidden scale behind

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every conversation and every communication you're

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ever involved in and why it matters. It's called

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the ladder of abstraction. Oh, that sounds very

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abstract. I can't wait to get more specific.

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Exactly. Exactly. So what are we talking about?

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What is the ladder of abstraction? It is a model

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that refers to how specific and concrete or general

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and conceptual your word choices are and why

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this matters, why being aware of it is worth

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doing, and how to tailor your use of language

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based on what your audience needs. So this applies

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in every imaginable context, whether it's giving

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a presentation, pitching an idea, explaining

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a concept, teaching. This is kind of in the background

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behind all communication and it's useful to be

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aware of. Yeah. Anytime you're having a conversation,

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you're deciding how you're going to talk to and

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with the person that you're talking to. Think

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of it this way. Have you ever been at a dinner

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conversation where someone is really getting

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into the nuances of their job and it's not...

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work that you do and it's boring and you don't

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understand the purpose of the conversation and

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they're giving you metrics and they're giving

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you KPIs and they're giving you all kinds of

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jargon and you're just kind of sitting there

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like, just give me the broad strokes here. Right.

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So this is just about when to zoom in, when to

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zoom out. That's a good way of looking at it,

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like a zoom lens on a camera. And sometimes you

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want to zoom right into the details to like the

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microscopic view. And then other times you want

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to zoom all the way out to the 10 ,000 foot view.

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Yeah. If we didn't have multiple camera angles

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in a movie, it would suck. Right, exactly. And

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so you think of these levels of abstraction like

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rungs on a ladder. And at the very bottom, you've

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got the super concrete, tangible, grounded in

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material reality. And as you go up the ladder,

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you get a little more general, a little more

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conceptual, and a little bigger and broader.

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And we're going to talk about the risks of being

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either... Too detailed or too abstract for a

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given context. How to tell which level you need.

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How to recognize when it's time to shift levels

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up and down. And what you can do to make those

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shifts. What you can do to make those shifts.

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How to recognize when you need to. And one of

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the big takeaways here is great communicators

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fluidly transition up and down between levels.

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There's a concept in consulting they call dolphining.

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So when you're talking about a problem. It's

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like if you think of the way a dolphin swims

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kind of up and down, you zoom down into the details,

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but then you've got to come back up for air at

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the 10 ,000 foot view to put everything back

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in context before diving into the details again.

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So having that fluidity can be super useful.

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Yeah. Sometimes when we're talking and we're

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giving lots of detail, we can get marred down

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in that. And then it's sort of like, well, why

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are we doing this? Right. So we zoom out to the

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big picture, like Chris just said. And then sometimes

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we're too conceptual and we're too focused on

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big picture stuff and we don't really get into

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the details of how we're going to do it. Yeah,

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or what we're even talking about. Sometimes big,

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broad, flowery language needs to be grounded

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in something concrete to give you a sense of

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what we're talking about. So a little bit of

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history. The term, the ladder of abstraction,

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was coined by a linguist who also happened to

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be a U .S. senator. So that's interesting, actually.

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Linguist. as a profession, requires you to be

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super specific down in the concrete. Like all

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of these academics have their own language and

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terms of art. And, you know, if you have advanced

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education in a particular field, it gets very

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specific. But then to be a senator, you've got

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to be much more broad. And glittering generalities

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and flowery, emotive language that... intentionally

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doesn't mean very much, but whips votes together.

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Yeah. Yeah. So really working both ends. So this

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guy, this guy had it all. Yeah. So he came up

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with it. And one of the examples he used was

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Bessie the cow. Yeah. So. He spoke about Bessie

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the cow on several different levels, right? At

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the very bottom level, there's Bessie. This specific

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cow, our old girl Bessie. And that tells us a

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lot, right? We know a lot about Bessie. We know

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what kind of food Bessie likes. We can talk about

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Bessie's habits. We know all kinds of things

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about Bessie. Right. And then we can zoom out

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a little bit more. And instead of saying Bessie,

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then we can say cow. So cow gives us some information,

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but it doesn't tell us. which specific cow we're

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talking about. Right. It now lumps Bessie in

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with female cattle. Right. So it refers to the

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characteristics Bessie shares with female cattle,

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but it allows you to also make more general statements.

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So it loses some of the granularity that comes

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to mind when you talk about Bessie, but it's

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more useful if you're trying to make a general

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statement about cows in general. Right. Yeah.

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So, and then if we want to zoom out even further

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than that, maybe we've got a product that's going

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to revolutionize Anyone who deals with cattle,

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right? So cows are going to be the female of

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the species, but cattle, well, that mixes Bessie

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now in with bulls. Bulls and heifers and all

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the other, everything else that's cattle. Right.

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And then if we want to zoom out even further

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than that, we could say livestock. Right. Because

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cows are part of that, but also we've got pigs,

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we've got chickens. Goats. Goats. And then if

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you go up from that, you could say farm asset.

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which now includes tractors and combines and

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all the other equipment. And corn and yeah, all

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of that. And the barn. And then from farm asset,

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we could just say asset. Right. And then that's

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even more broad. Now that includes your house

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and your stock portfolio and your car. And then

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eventually we get to super abstract concepts,

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things like value, things like wealth. And so

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Bessie is in there. Right. But. she's really

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lost in the sauce now. Well, and it depends on

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what you're talking about. So for example, sometimes

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you want to talk about Bessie the cow, like,

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hey, have you seen Bessie? Did she wander off

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again? Yeah. Right. We got to call Bessie home.

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That's right. And you don't want to be talking

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about assets, right? One of my assets wandered

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away. You want to know which one, but if you're

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making a pitch for investors, you want to talk

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more at the level of assets and ROI and wealth

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creation. There you go. It really depends on

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who's your audience, what's the context. You'll

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talk about these things differently. And even

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with Bessie, as you go up the rung through Bessie,

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cow, cattle, if you're thinking in economic terms,

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then it starts to go into like the asset class

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and the wealth piece, which you could also, if

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you're talking to an animal rights activist,

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you're going to go in a different direction.

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And the highest level might be conscious being.

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Right. Right. Which Bessie is also a conscious

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being, but you're not going to talk about conscious

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beings to an investor. And you're not going to

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talk about assets and wealth to PETA. Yeah, they

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probably don't want to have that kind of conversation.

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I mean, you're going to ruffle some feathers.

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Yeah. And you can go in different directions

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too. If you're talking to a biologist, you might

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be at the highest level, it's organism, right?

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So you can be a member of all sorts of different

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classes from the concrete. You can abstract in

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different directions. For sure. And so what the

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ladder of abstraction is going to do for us is

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it's going to give us a direction as to how general

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should I be or how specific should I be with

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whichever group of people I'm dealing with so

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that we can communicate our ideas clearly and

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so that people don't walk away confused and just

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say, what was the purpose of that conversation?

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Why were we talking about assets when his cow

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was in the middle of the field lost? Right, exactly.

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So your choice of level. It influences how clear

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you are and how people understand you and has

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a lot to say about how well your message lands.

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So there's no universally right or wrong level

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of abstraction. It's about choosing the right

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altitude for your message. That's a good way

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to think about it. And then also being able to

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move up and down. Dolphining. That dolphining

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piece, which we'll talk about a bit more. There's

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also a concept called dead leveling, which is

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when you just get stuck at one level and only

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speak at the same level. Definitely had some

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people who have done that to me. Yeah. Who have

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just talked to me on a granular level. I'm lost

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in the weeds. Like, I don't understand the purpose

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of this conversation anymore. A lot of times

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I'll find with people who are talking about their

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jobs will tell me about just very nuanced details

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that really don't matter in the broad sort of

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spectrum of the conversation. Yeah. And that's

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a... Good example. So you probably have people

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in your life who are fun to talk to and you'd

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say are good conversationalists, even if they're

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talking about their work. And then other people

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who just bore you with way too much minutiae

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that only they are interested in. Think of it

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this way. Someone comes in and says, you know,

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I had a rough day at work today. One of my coworkers

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came in and just dumped a pile of work on my

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desk. And then one of my other coworkers knocked

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their coffee on top of it. And then I had to

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spend the rest of the day. printing everything

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out and I didn't actually get any work done.

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That's a fairly broad, but then if I were to

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say, yeah, so John came in today and, and you

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know, John, he came in, he's got this stack of

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paper for me and each paper has, I mean, already

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I've lost you. Right. It's too much detail, way

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too much detail. So in the example you just gave,

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there's a level at which you can talk about the

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details of your daily experience that'll connect

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with others and that they can relate to. And

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you want to find the level of commonality. And

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that level of commonality is probably not deep

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down in the TPS reports. No. Well, if I say coworker,

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most people can... Most people have a coworker.

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Most people have a coworker, or they can at least

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conceptualize that. If I say John, not everyone

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has a John. Right. And so if I'm telling you

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a specific person or a specific thing, it gets

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down on that granular nuance level, which can

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be frustrating. And then there's the opposite

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problem if I'm being too abstract or too foggy.

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then you also don't know what the hell I'm talking

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about. So let's give some concrete examples.

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You know, if you're in a workplace, something

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too abstract might be a directive from leadership

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saying we need to be more innovative or we're

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going to prioritize excellence. Fantastic. Synergy.

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That just looks great on a mouse pad and a motivational

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poster. But what do I do tomorrow when I come

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into work to be more innovative or to prioritize

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excellence? What does that actually mean? Or

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let's elevate the customer experience. Okay,

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well. What does that mean? Does that mean shorter

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wait times? Does it mean friendlier staff? Does

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it mean more personalized service? Does it mean

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cleaner bathrooms? Right. Yeah. Customer experience.

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There's a lot of different levels there. So we

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still need to zoom in a little bit, right? Right.

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And then the other thing too specific, we already

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talked about that a little bit, but we need to

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change the footer margin by 0 .5 inches and update

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the alt text on slide 14. Okay. might be helpful

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if you're formatting slides, but if the team

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is asking, why are we doing this presentation

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to begin with? Then that doesn't really answer

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the question. You're talking about details and

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everyone is just kind of left scratching their

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head as to, well, I don't understand the purpose

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of the presentation. Right, exactly. So the trick

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is great communicators know how to climb up and

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down the ladder, how and when, and they do it

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mindfully. So some tips, right? You want to go.

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Down the ladder towards the more concrete, when

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people are needing clarity, instructions, examples,

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some clues that you need to go down the ladder

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might be when someone asks, what do you mean

00:12:25.269 --> 00:12:27.690
by that? Or can you give an example? Right. Or

00:12:27.690 --> 00:12:29.809
if they just stare at you blankly and you can

00:12:29.809 --> 00:12:32.909
tell that they have no idea what you're talking

00:12:32.909 --> 00:12:35.049
about, your language might be too abstract. They're

00:12:35.049 --> 00:12:37.070
just livestock in the headlights. Yeah, exactly.

00:12:39.850 --> 00:12:41.690
Assets in the headlights. Assets in the headlights.

00:12:42.009 --> 00:12:46.990
Wealth in the headlights. So you want to drill

00:12:46.990 --> 00:12:49.149
down and get more concrete in those scenarios.

00:12:49.549 --> 00:12:52.149
So someone says, let's improve our digital presence.

00:12:52.830 --> 00:12:56.269
Blink, blink, and then crickets. Okay, how about

00:12:56.269 --> 00:12:58.909
let's post one piece of content per day on LinkedIn?

00:12:59.090 --> 00:13:02.029
Ah, that I can do. Yeah, thank you. That's much

00:13:02.029 --> 00:13:04.250
more specific and that makes a whole lot more

00:13:04.250 --> 00:13:08.409
sense. The other side of that is going up the

00:13:08.409 --> 00:13:10.870
ladder. So we might want to become more abstract

00:13:10.870 --> 00:13:14.429
instead of being super nuanced. So we're going

00:13:14.429 --> 00:13:16.190
to go up the ladder when people need vision,

00:13:16.330 --> 00:13:18.230
when people need to understand purpose, when

00:13:18.230 --> 00:13:21.049
people need to be aligned on things, right? So

00:13:21.049 --> 00:13:23.009
this is where we're zooming out. Where do I need

00:13:23.009 --> 00:13:25.149
to pan out? So I need to pan out when people

00:13:25.149 --> 00:13:27.850
are overwhelmed by detail or if I'm explaining

00:13:27.850 --> 00:13:31.049
something and nobody remembers why we're doing

00:13:31.049 --> 00:13:33.129
this, right? Like we talked about with our presentation.

00:13:33.330 --> 00:13:36.250
Right. And the 0 .5 font. Like what's the point

00:13:36.250 --> 00:13:38.309
of all this detail? Yeah. Why are we talking

00:13:38.309 --> 00:13:40.549
about this? Where do I put this in my brain?

00:13:40.629 --> 00:13:43.759
What category does this? barrage of detail you're

00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:45.860
throwing at me go into? Yeah. So again, you might

00:13:45.860 --> 00:13:47.779
see people just sort of glaze over because of

00:13:47.779 --> 00:13:49.519
the amount of detail that you're giving, right?

00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:51.580
Rather than the deer in headlights look, this

00:13:51.580 --> 00:13:54.340
is just a, oh my God, when is he going to stop

00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:56.480
talking? Or when are they going to stop talking

00:13:56.480 --> 00:13:59.220
about whatever it is? For example, engineers

00:13:59.220 --> 00:14:01.519
saying things like, well, we need to add a feature

00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:04.399
to sync with Google Calendar using two -way API

00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:06.759
integration. Okay, great. That's very clear.

00:14:07.340 --> 00:14:11.519
But if I'm not an engineer, I don't care. How

00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:14.279
is this helping a non -engineer figure it out,

00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:16.539
right? But for an exec, we might say something

00:14:16.539 --> 00:14:19.539
like, we want to give users more control over

00:14:19.539 --> 00:14:22.440
their schedules. Right. Now we've zoomed out

00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:25.759
and we're speaking at an appropriate level for

00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:30.139
our audience. Yeah. So in this sense, the abstract

00:14:30.139 --> 00:14:33.559
can explain why the specific matters. And the

00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:35.500
example you just gave is a great one because

00:14:35.500 --> 00:14:37.539
I deal with a lot of clients who are highly technical

00:14:41.129 --> 00:14:44.149
message when presenting to senior leadership.

00:14:44.389 --> 00:14:47.370
So where they live is in the details of writing

00:14:47.370 --> 00:14:50.769
code and functional specs, and they live in the

00:14:50.769 --> 00:14:52.909
details of building stuff. That's really funny

00:14:52.909 --> 00:14:54.950
because the people that I deal with are commonly

00:14:54.950 --> 00:14:57.610
on the other end of the spectrum who have great

00:14:57.610 --> 00:15:01.009
big ideas, but they're not nuanced enough in

00:15:01.009 --> 00:15:03.549
terms of getting down to, well, here are the

00:15:03.549 --> 00:15:06.129
steps that I need to take. Right. Exactly. And

00:15:06.129 --> 00:15:09.659
so you need both. It really matters what the

00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:11.340
purpose of the conversation is and who the audience

00:15:11.340 --> 00:15:14.539
is. So I'll often coach highly technical people

00:15:14.539 --> 00:15:18.840
on how to give a presentation to different levels

00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:21.059
of the organization. And it starts with what

00:15:21.059 --> 00:15:24.080
do those people care about? What is of interest

00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:28.639
to them? And you tailor the message so as to

00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:32.100
be useful to your audience. So you're not going

00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:34.919
to talk to a senior leadership team about individual

00:15:34.919 --> 00:16:07.110
lines of code. Yeah. development environments

00:16:07.110 --> 00:16:09.409
and frameworks. So when do I need to zoom in

00:16:09.409 --> 00:16:11.610
and when do I need to zoom out, right? There's

00:16:11.610 --> 00:16:14.169
that cliche in Mission Impossible where anytime

00:16:14.169 --> 00:16:16.309
there's a bomb that's going to go off, they zoom

00:16:16.309 --> 00:16:18.590
in on the counter and it's the clock ticking

00:16:18.590 --> 00:16:21.169
down every so often. And then they zoom out and

00:16:21.169 --> 00:16:24.110
we see the big action sequences. And then we

00:16:24.110 --> 00:16:26.190
zoom in a little bit and we see Tom Cruise's

00:16:26.190 --> 00:16:27.990
character, maybe he's in the middle of a fight

00:16:27.990 --> 00:16:29.850
or he's trying to disarm the bomb. And then we

00:16:29.850 --> 00:16:31.990
zoom in again and we see that clock is ticking

00:16:31.990 --> 00:16:34.210
down a little bit more. And so you're doing the

00:16:34.210 --> 00:16:36.110
same thing with your conversation. Sometimes

00:16:36.110 --> 00:16:37.669
you're peeling back and you're giving people

00:16:37.669 --> 00:16:40.529
a broad idea because Mission Impossible would

00:16:40.529 --> 00:16:44.009
suck if it was just a clock for two hours. Right.

00:16:44.070 --> 00:16:45.950
Or if it was all at that level of camera zoom,

00:16:46.129 --> 00:16:48.129
it'd be okay. Clock. And now you can see Tom

00:16:48.129 --> 00:16:51.429
Cruise's foot, but you can't tell what's going

00:16:51.429 --> 00:16:53.110
on in the bigger scene. And it would also suck

00:16:53.110 --> 00:16:55.269
if it was just a Google earth level satellite

00:16:55.269 --> 00:16:58.210
photo where you just, you can't see much of anything.

00:16:58.250 --> 00:17:00.009
And then poof, there's a little explosion and

00:17:00.009 --> 00:17:02.690
that's your climax and you roll credits. Yeah.

00:17:03.190 --> 00:17:07.210
So. The goal here is agility and fluidity. And

00:17:07.210 --> 00:17:08.710
there's a few principles you can apply, right?

00:17:08.789 --> 00:17:11.529
So that's the level of your listeners needs would

00:17:11.529 --> 00:17:14.269
be one that I would put forth. Do they need to

00:17:14.269 --> 00:17:16.950
understand the bigger picture? If so, zoom out,

00:17:17.009 --> 00:17:19.329
right? Do they need to take a specific action?

00:17:19.490 --> 00:17:22.990
If so, zoom in. That's a really good distinction,

00:17:23.130 --> 00:17:25.930
right? And I think it's useful to have a bit

00:17:25.930 --> 00:17:27.869
of both, but which do you lean on more heavily?

00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:31.289
So when I was explaining anything to say a team

00:17:31.289 --> 00:17:34.039
of engineers or a deployment team, in my former

00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:36.839
career, I would start with the big picture to

00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:38.740
give them some context. Here's what we're trying

00:17:38.740 --> 00:17:40.319
to accomplish. Here's the setting we're walking

00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:42.099
into. Here are some of the characters. That's

00:17:42.099 --> 00:17:45.160
high level. Now, that's useful for them to understand

00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:47.940
context, but it doesn't help them actually guide

00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:50.160
their choices about specific actions to take.

00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:53.039
So I'd have to just paint a big picture quickly

00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:55.099
and then zoom into the details. You're going

00:17:55.099 --> 00:17:57.759
to be assigned to this polling location on election

00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:00.440
day. Your job is to service equipment as required.

00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:02.420
And here's the protocol for swapping out a machine.

00:18:02.890 --> 00:18:05.750
Now I'm at the action level. So actions are lower

00:18:05.750 --> 00:18:08.509
down on the rung. Context is higher up. Right.

00:18:08.690 --> 00:18:10.950
The next principle that we want to look out for

00:18:10.950 --> 00:18:13.630
is considering time and context. In the early

00:18:13.630 --> 00:18:16.589
stages, when we're just kind of figuring out

00:18:16.589 --> 00:18:19.049
the purpose of the thing, then we want to be

00:18:19.049 --> 00:18:22.589
more zoomed out and we want to explore why are

00:18:22.589 --> 00:18:24.809
we doing this? What is important about this?

00:18:24.990 --> 00:18:27.769
What are our larger goals? And then when we're

00:18:27.769 --> 00:18:29.849
trying to execute, like you just said, we're

00:18:29.849 --> 00:18:32.210
going to zoom in and we're going to start. Trying

00:18:32.210 --> 00:18:34.309
to figure out who's accountable for what specific

00:18:34.309 --> 00:18:37.150
tasks. For example, if a client says, I want

00:18:37.150 --> 00:18:40.230
to be more impactful, that's too abstract. I

00:18:40.230 --> 00:18:42.769
don't know what that means. So what would that

00:18:42.769 --> 00:18:45.549
look like in your next meeting, right? And now

00:18:45.549 --> 00:18:47.990
we're starting to dig into something that's more

00:18:47.990 --> 00:18:50.190
actionable. Well, this is an interesting example.

00:18:50.349 --> 00:18:53.130
In my coaching work, a conversation might start

00:18:53.130 --> 00:18:54.549
that way or an engagement might start that way.

00:18:54.589 --> 00:18:57.109
I want to be more impactful. And I'll say, okay,

00:18:57.170 --> 00:18:59.730
great. I will actually go in each direction in

00:18:59.730 --> 00:19:01.789
sequence. I might start with saying, okay, why?

00:19:01.950 --> 00:19:03.609
What does that mean to you? Why is being more

00:19:03.609 --> 00:19:06.809
impactful important to try to get at what's motivating

00:19:06.809 --> 00:19:09.390
them? What is the broader meaning of having impact?

00:19:09.690 --> 00:19:12.369
Now I understand why, and then I'll zoom in.

00:19:12.410 --> 00:19:14.970
Okay, what would that look like? And we get more

00:19:14.970 --> 00:19:17.269
concrete and more specific about it. If you're

00:19:17.269 --> 00:19:20.450
not sure, just start somewhere in the middle.

00:19:20.470 --> 00:19:24.779
So not too specific, not too broad. like a mid

00:19:24.779 --> 00:19:27.259
-level idea to sort of test things. And then

00:19:27.259 --> 00:19:29.759
if people look confused, you need to get more

00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:32.759
specific. And if people glaze over because they're

00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:35.099
bogged down in detail, then you need to start

00:19:35.099 --> 00:19:37.140
to zoom out a little bit and go a little bit

00:19:37.140 --> 00:19:39.019
bigger picture. And you can always adjust, right?

00:19:39.259 --> 00:19:41.180
It's pretty easy to tell once you can pick up

00:19:41.180 --> 00:19:43.700
on those social cues. And if you can't pick up

00:19:43.700 --> 00:19:46.160
on those social cues, some of us are better at

00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.279
intuing how people are feeling. You can always

00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.599
ask. There's no shame in the game in asking people.

00:19:53.259 --> 00:19:55.900
How is this landing? Am I being too specific?

00:19:56.059 --> 00:19:58.480
Is this too nuanced? Where are we at right here?

00:19:58.660 --> 00:20:01.599
Yeah. And I think we kind of intuitively have

00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:04.339
done this in our conversations in prior episodes.

00:20:04.819 --> 00:20:07.960
We'll outline a concept and talk about it kind

00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:10.180
of at the conceptual level. And then we'll give

00:20:10.180 --> 00:20:13.019
an example, which is concrete and specific. And

00:20:13.019 --> 00:20:15.279
a lot of people will do this habitually. You'll

00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:16.920
outline a concept and then you give an example.

00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:19.200
And the reason for that is you want to cover

00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.150
it from different levels of abstraction. If you're

00:20:22.150 --> 00:20:24.890
only talking about the example, then it doesn't

00:20:24.890 --> 00:20:27.869
generalize. You want it to be general, but if

00:20:27.869 --> 00:20:30.390
you only talk at the general level, it's harder

00:20:30.390 --> 00:20:32.769
to wrap your hands around. This episode right

00:20:32.769 --> 00:20:34.390
here, if we had just come in and said, there

00:20:34.390 --> 00:20:36.789
are levels to the kind of conversation that you're

00:20:36.789 --> 00:20:38.589
going to have. There are levels to details. You

00:20:38.589 --> 00:20:41.029
can be too abstract and you can be too detailed.

00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:43.509
And we just parked it right there. We haven't

00:20:43.509 --> 00:20:45.130
said much. We haven't said very much. And people

00:20:45.130 --> 00:20:47.069
are kind of left scratching their heads. That's

00:20:47.069 --> 00:20:49.119
the point of the Bessie example. Yeah. The whole

00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:51.960
Bessie example is a concrete example of this

00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.339
broader context of the ladder of abstraction.

00:20:55.539 --> 00:21:00.380
So years ago, I was in a relationship and my

00:21:00.380 --> 00:21:02.400
girlfriend at the time was having a conversation

00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:05.579
with someone else and they were gossiping about

00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:07.519
one of my friends. They were talking about one

00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.859
of my friends and some details of his life. And

00:21:10.859 --> 00:21:13.319
I had asked them not to. I said, hey, like, I'd

00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:14.720
prefer if you didn't gossip about my friend.

00:21:14.980 --> 00:21:16.960
And my girlfriend at the time said something

00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:20.880
like, There can be this dynamic that unfolds

00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:22.720
between men and women where men accuse women

00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.420
of gossiping. And she wanted to talk about gender

00:21:25.420 --> 00:21:29.839
politics, which took it way more abstract. Now

00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:32.720
it's this broad societal gender dynamics issue.

00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:35.079
And I said, yeah, that may be true. But right

00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:38.200
now I'm asking you to stop talking about Bob.

00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:41.140
That's like, can we keep it real? Can we keep

00:21:41.140 --> 00:21:43.420
it in the room? Because it starts to float away

00:21:43.420 --> 00:21:46.849
into. And that's not to say that there isn't

00:21:46.849 --> 00:21:49.549
a valid time and place to talk about gender dynamics

00:21:49.549 --> 00:21:52.829
in society. But this wasn't that specific. But

00:21:52.829 --> 00:21:55.490
it was slippery because by getting more abstract

00:21:55.490 --> 00:21:57.589
away from the concrete, it was a way of just

00:21:57.589 --> 00:21:59.990
avoiding what's happening right here in this

00:21:59.990 --> 00:22:02.109
room. Right. Yeah. There was a specific request.

00:22:02.190 --> 00:22:04.930
There was specific language used. And if we start

00:22:04.930 --> 00:22:07.430
to zoom out, then we're having a totally different

00:22:07.430 --> 00:22:08.829
conversation. I didn't want to have an academic

00:22:08.829 --> 00:22:11.269
discussion about gender dynamics in Western society.

00:22:11.450 --> 00:22:13.990
I wanted you to stop talking about Bob. Yeah.

00:22:14.299 --> 00:22:16.319
And this is an example of where there's a mismatch

00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:18.339
in the level of abstraction and why it can be

00:22:18.339 --> 00:22:21.019
frustrating because different levels of abstraction

00:22:21.019 --> 00:22:25.359
are useful for different purposes. And my purpose

00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:27.519
was I wanted to end a conversation about Bob

00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.839
and where she kind of instinctively went. And

00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:33.099
I don't think she was doing it to dodge the question.

00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:36.180
It was just one of the lenses that she saw the

00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:39.279
world through was this idea of gender dynamics.

00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:41.200
And it was kind of everywhere. And instantly

00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:44.680
her mind went to apply that lens. And I found

00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:46.680
it frustrating because it was a completely different

00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:49.440
purpose from what I was trying to get done in

00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.720
that moment. Right. Yeah. It zoomed the conversation

00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:54.599
out to a point where, like we said with Bessie,

00:22:54.619 --> 00:22:57.660
right? You went from cows or Bessie specifically

00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:00.920
to assets. Asset management and like retirement

00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:02.819
planning or something. The other thing that can

00:23:02.819 --> 00:23:06.299
happen is while these different levels of abstraction

00:23:06.299 --> 00:23:10.480
are each necessary and useful, you need to be

00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.500
careful with it because. When you take something

00:23:13.500 --> 00:23:16.960
that's concrete and specific and speak about

00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:20.440
it in the language that's more abstract, say

00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:23.200
two or three levels higher, what can happen is

00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:27.099
some of the associations of the high -level concept

00:23:27.099 --> 00:23:31.200
can now creep in and become associated with the

00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:34.319
specific example, and it may or may not apply.

00:23:34.660 --> 00:23:39.380
Right. Right? So let's say you are caught speeding.

00:23:40.539 --> 00:23:42.599
and there's probably a speed limit beyond which

00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:45.660
it's criminal, right? So you were caught driving

00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:48.059
150 kilometers an hour, and it's like criminal

00:23:48.059 --> 00:23:51.059
reckless driving. I'm making that up. Maybe it's

00:23:51.059 --> 00:23:53.980
a thing. So great. What would we call stunt driving

00:23:53.980 --> 00:23:55.720
here? Stunt driving, sure. Stunt driving. So

00:23:55.720 --> 00:23:59.079
that's a crime, let's say. Now, if moving forward,

00:23:59.099 --> 00:24:01.480
you start referring to me as a criminal, that

00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:04.480
may be true. But people are going to draw all

00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:06.619
kinds of other inferences associated with the

00:24:06.619 --> 00:24:09.119
word criminal that maybe aren't applicable. So

00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:11.299
the broader the category, the more abstract,

00:24:11.619 --> 00:24:15.720
the more other associations can get lumped in

00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:17.619
and then associated with it. Yeah. If I was to

00:24:17.619 --> 00:24:20.920
say, oh, my friend Chris here is a criminal and

00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:23.880
has a couple of outstanding warrants versus if

00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:26.000
I were to say something like, oh, do you guys

00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:28.079
see Dale Earnhardt got a ticket again? Right.

00:24:28.750 --> 00:24:30.890
You know, if people know who Dale Earnhardt is.

00:24:31.170 --> 00:24:34.589
Right, he's a race driver. Yeah, so. So this

00:24:34.589 --> 00:24:37.369
is something to be mindful of. When you speak

00:24:37.369 --> 00:24:42.430
about something in the abstract, a lot of extra

00:24:42.430 --> 00:24:44.789
meaning can get smuggled in because the bigger

00:24:44.789 --> 00:24:48.309
the concept, the more it could mean, but the

00:24:48.309 --> 00:24:52.390
less it does mean in the specific. So just something

00:24:52.390 --> 00:24:54.789
to be aware of. I think that's a really good

00:24:54.789 --> 00:24:57.329
point, yeah. And again, this is just trying to

00:24:57.329 --> 00:24:59.660
gauge where I am. On that ladder of abstraction,

00:24:59.960 --> 00:25:02.759
where do I need to go so that we don't smuggle

00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:04.980
in extra meaning? And sometimes you might be

00:25:04.980 --> 00:25:08.980
doing it unbeknownst to you. So again, just good

00:25:08.980 --> 00:25:11.480
to check in with yourself. And am I speaking

00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:13.859
to my audience in a way that is going to make

00:25:13.859 --> 00:25:16.880
sense or am I leaving too many details out? Right.

00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:19.859
Yeah. And like if someone says, oh, such and

00:25:19.859 --> 00:25:21.619
such person, I find them to be unprofessional.

00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:23.759
Does that mean that they're late for meetings

00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:25.920
or does it mean that they commit wide scale fraud?

00:25:26.180 --> 00:25:29.109
Right. Both are unprofessional. Sure. Yeah. So

00:25:29.109 --> 00:25:31.349
one of the most common things we talked about

00:25:31.349 --> 00:25:33.769
was dead level abstraction. So this is a trap

00:25:33.769 --> 00:25:37.529
that Hayakawa, the originator of this concept,

00:25:37.650 --> 00:25:39.690
coined. And this is the thing about when someone

00:25:39.690 --> 00:25:42.630
talks at only one level, either abstract or concrete,

00:25:42.789 --> 00:25:45.230
pick a level. Politicians are a good example

00:25:45.230 --> 00:25:48.490
where often they'll speak almost exclusively

00:25:48.490 --> 00:25:53.410
in these very broad, glittering, general, we're

00:25:53.410 --> 00:25:56.880
fighting for freedom. And rights and democracy

00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.599
and all of these big lofty concepts, but it might

00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:01.279
mean very different things to different people.

00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:03.799
For sure. Yeah. And often they're intentionally

00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:05.900
staying abstract in order to avoid being pinned

00:26:05.900 --> 00:26:08.480
down because accountability doesn't live in the

00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.319
abstract. Yeah. I found that during the last

00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:13.299
election that we had, I had some friends who,

00:26:13.339 --> 00:26:15.660
you know, were on a different side of the political

00:26:15.660 --> 00:26:17.720
spectrum and saying like, oh, well, this person

00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:20.910
is to me a real life Bond villain. Okay, but

00:26:20.910 --> 00:26:22.410
what does that mean? Well, they're a bad person.

00:26:22.509 --> 00:26:25.690
Okay, but what about their policies? And they

00:26:25.690 --> 00:26:28.769
couldn't give me any sort of specifics. It was

00:26:28.769 --> 00:26:31.910
just this, I don't like the wing of the plane

00:26:31.910 --> 00:26:33.490
that I think that they're sitting closest to.

00:26:33.490 --> 00:26:36.509
Right. This person's a radical lefty. Okay, that's

00:26:36.509 --> 00:26:39.250
a category. What do you mean by that? Right.

00:26:39.309 --> 00:26:41.970
Like, what are we talking about? And then it

00:26:41.970 --> 00:26:44.910
was just kind of, well, I don't know. I don't

00:26:44.910 --> 00:26:47.710
know. Right. The big broad categories are often

00:26:47.710 --> 00:26:50.140
where the emotion. Kind of lives the concepts

00:26:50.140 --> 00:26:54.539
like justice and right and wrong and left versus

00:26:54.539 --> 00:26:56.680
right or freedom of speech or all of these things.

00:26:56.920 --> 00:26:59.700
People can get very emotive about them. For sure.

00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:01.940
And it can be useful to ground it. Like, okay,

00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:04.180
what are we actually talking about? And when

00:27:04.180 --> 00:27:08.079
you drill down into the details, it's often but

00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:11.160
not always the case that the emotions will settle

00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:13.140
down. Yeah, because now we're actually talking

00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:17.079
about substance. So being grounded is going to

00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:20.700
be a crucial part here. Yeah. So if we're stuck

00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:23.880
at one level and our message is lacking meaning

00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:27.440
or actionability, if we're dead leveling, if

00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:30.759
we are stuck at too high a concept, or if we're

00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:34.420
stuck at just that base level, too many details,

00:27:34.579 --> 00:27:37.759
what can we do to try and move things along?

00:27:37.859 --> 00:27:42.160
How can we move up or down that ladder? So if

00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:44.579
we're too abstract, we're going to sound vague.

00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:47.019
If we're too specific, Depending on our audience,

00:27:47.180 --> 00:27:49.160
it's just not going to be relevant to them. Or

00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:51.539
interesting. Or interesting. And to be honest,

00:27:51.700 --> 00:27:53.359
regardless of who you're talking about, if you're

00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:55.599
sticking to one level, at a certain point, you're

00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:57.140
just going to lose people altogether anyway.

00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:00.839
So if you're trying to be a better communicator,

00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:03.160
you want to be agile. You want the agility, like

00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:05.200
you said, right? Moving between those different

00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:09.640
levels with just fluidity. So one thing that

00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:11.930
you can do. Take a common phrase that you use,

00:28:12.009 --> 00:28:14.029
like we need better communication and rephrase

00:28:14.029 --> 00:28:17.210
it at a couple of different levels. So you already

00:28:17.210 --> 00:28:19.569
got better communication. That's super vague.

00:28:19.750 --> 00:28:22.890
A little clearer. We need to respond to emails

00:28:22.890 --> 00:28:26.890
faster. Okay, great. But what's faster? Is that

00:28:26.890 --> 00:28:29.869
a month? Is that two weeks? Is that 24 hours,

00:28:30.009 --> 00:28:33.009
right? So replying within two hours during business

00:28:33.009 --> 00:28:35.450
hours, that's much more concrete. And then if

00:28:35.450 --> 00:28:39.799
we wanted to be super specific, set your... Slack

00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:42.220
to available and make sure that you're checking

00:28:42.220 --> 00:28:45.660
your messages hourly and replying within 10 minutes

00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:48.559
of having checked your messages. Right. There's

00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:51.019
a great video series, which you can catch on

00:28:51.019 --> 00:28:55.579
YouTube. I think it's Vox and it's expert explains

00:28:55.579 --> 00:28:58.220
such and such concept at five different levels.

00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:01.500
And so they'll have renowned experts in physics.

00:29:02.059 --> 00:29:04.680
They had astronauts on there. They've had all

00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:07.539
kinds of scientists, different medical professionals.

00:29:09.159 --> 00:29:12.640
they'll ask them to talk for a few minutes about

00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:15.440
their area of expertise at five different levels

00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:18.299
of sophistication. And they start with, how would

00:29:18.299 --> 00:29:21.559
you explain general relativity to a five -year

00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:24.299
-old? And then they will. And they'll speak for

00:29:24.299 --> 00:29:26.180
a couple of minutes in a way that, and there's

00:29:26.180 --> 00:29:27.880
an actual five -year -old on camera with them.

00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:29.960
And the five -year -old comes away with some

00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:31.740
understanding of the topic that's appropriate

00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:33.500
for their level. That's great. And then they'll

00:29:33.500 --> 00:29:36.259
say, okay, now explain it to a high school student.

00:29:36.619 --> 00:29:39.170
And they'll talk about the same topic. Using

00:29:39.170 --> 00:29:40.809
very different language from how they spoke to

00:29:40.809 --> 00:29:42.890
the five -year -old, but still appropriate to

00:29:42.890 --> 00:29:45.109
the high school students level. Then they'll

00:29:45.109 --> 00:29:47.049
say, okay, how about a college undergrad? Right.

00:29:47.150 --> 00:29:50.529
Okay, great. Now, how about a PhD student? And

00:29:50.529 --> 00:29:53.150
then now talk to us at the level of the leaders

00:29:53.150 --> 00:29:55.190
in the field. And you get it all the way from

00:29:55.190 --> 00:29:58.230
five -year -old up to the kind of thing that

00:29:58.230 --> 00:30:00.029
a small handful of people in the world can understand.

00:30:00.069 --> 00:30:02.289
And the point is, it's a brilliant illustration

00:30:02.289 --> 00:30:05.329
of how you can talk about the same concept. In

00:30:05.329 --> 00:30:08.519
this case. It's at different levels of sophistication,

00:30:08.579 --> 00:30:13.359
but it's kind of like inverting the abstraction

00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:15.460
pyramid in a certain sense. Because when you're

00:30:15.460 --> 00:30:16.619
talking to a five -year -old, you're going to

00:30:16.619 --> 00:30:19.779
have to use much simpler, general, broader strokes

00:30:19.779 --> 00:30:23.900
terms. And then as they go up in technical sophistication,

00:30:24.019 --> 00:30:28.279
they're getting much more specific and granular

00:30:28.279 --> 00:30:31.420
in the language. Right. So a great exercise to

00:30:31.420 --> 00:30:34.200
do is if you have a concept or something that

00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:37.920
you need to... Get out there. Try it at those

00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:39.599
different levels. Say it out loud to yourself

00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:43.440
and see what lands the best or what you think

00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:44.839
is going to land the best. And if things are

00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:48.119
not working, if people are disengaging, then

00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:50.059
switch gears and go to a different level. Try

00:30:50.059 --> 00:30:52.140
switching it up. And it's a good exercise. It's

00:30:52.140 --> 00:30:54.079
something that invariably in your professional

00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:56.980
career, you're going to have to do at different

00:30:56.980 --> 00:30:59.599
levels. Like when you're writing a technical

00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:01.960
spec for engineers, it's going to be much more

00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:03.740
specific than when you're talking about the same

00:31:03.740 --> 00:31:06.160
thing. at an executive meeting. And it can be

00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:09.319
a useful practice to just practice phrasing things

00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:11.579
at different levels of abstraction and be aware

00:31:11.579 --> 00:31:14.039
that if your communication is missing the mark

00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:17.960
for some reason, this might be why. And practice

00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:19.660
shifting gears up or down the ladder and see

00:31:19.660 --> 00:31:21.720
if it helps. One of the things that you can do

00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:24.440
in order to get yourself up and down the ladder,

00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:27.059
if you're curious as to how to move up and down,

00:31:27.140 --> 00:31:30.460
two questions, how and why. And we can use those

00:31:30.460 --> 00:31:33.869
to move more effectively. Right. How takes you

00:31:33.869 --> 00:31:36.849
down the ladder? Why takes you further up? Right.

00:31:36.950 --> 00:31:39.210
So if you're super detailed, why are we doing

00:31:39.210 --> 00:31:41.750
this? And that's going to start moving you up

00:31:41.750 --> 00:31:44.430
to the more general. And like Chris just said,

00:31:44.509 --> 00:31:47.410
if your big concept here, how is going to start

00:31:47.410 --> 00:31:49.589
moving you down the ladder to an appropriate

00:31:49.589 --> 00:31:51.849
level, again, for the audience that you're speaking

00:31:51.849 --> 00:31:55.430
to. As always, we hope this was useful. Thanks

00:31:55.430 --> 00:31:55.930
for tuning in.