Going Deeper — In Conversations and Relationships

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At our least put together is when we are often

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the most connected, right? Be willing for things

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to be messy. You got one precious life and it's

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an opportunity to stop playing it so damn safe

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and you'll be fine. Make messes, be willing to

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make messes and then trust that you can clean

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them up and live a little. Welcome to Making

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Yourself Clear. I'm Chris. I'm Patrick. And today

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we're going to talk about how to build more meaningful

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connections in your life. So we live in a world

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where surface -level connection is everywhere.

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We've got quick replies, we've got double taps,

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we've got reels, we've got polite small talk.

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But meaningful conversation takes intention.

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If we're looking to get deep with somebody, being

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vulnerable with someone, that takes a willingness

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to do so, and it takes an intentionality. courage

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that's required uh most of all it's going to

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take some practice and that's what we're going

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to be talking about today so quick question for

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you you mentioned double taps and reels i did

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what did you mean by double taps reels i've like

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are those the things that float by on the uh

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like a youtube short or something or facebook

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facebook reels facebook reels uh tiktok and then

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double tap what's a double tap yeah so when you

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like a comment you tap it twice and the little

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heart appears oh i didn't even know that i mean

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this is it i'm learning about I'm learning about

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the socials today, showing my age. So deeper

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conversations. What do we mean by that? We mean

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beyond the usual small talk, right? Like we default

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to talking about a handful of topics, the weather,

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sports, if you're into sports, politics, superficial

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stuff, which is fine. There's a place for that,

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right? It's like warming up a conversation. There's

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room for that. But if you're yearning for more

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meaningful connection, more depth where you actually

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get to see deeper into what's going on for another

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person or you get to share more about what's

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really going on for you the stuff that matters

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like your inner world that's where intimacy gets

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created and that's where meaningful connection

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happens and if you're just waiting for it to

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be sprinkled on you by luck or the the intimacy

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fairy it'll happen when it does and otherwise

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it won't so we're going to talk about how you

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can actually consciously cultivate more of this

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in your life in an intentional way because i

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think it's it's really nourishing when we get

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to experience that and yeah being able to create

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it when you want to, it's a way to squeeze more

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juice out of life. Most people, truthfully, don't

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know how to go deep. And it's not because they

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don't want to, it's just because a lot of people

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have never been taught how to. Some people do

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grow up in a culture where they have that intimacy

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and that vulnerability and it's modeled really

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well for them. Many of us have to learn how to

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do that. I think that's a really good point.

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Whatever we grow up with, like what was normal?

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In our family of origin, we're comfortable with

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that because we experienced lots of it. So if

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you grew up in a family where there was a lot

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of deep, genuine conversation and, you know,

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your parents and siblings were comfortable expressing

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more vulnerable emotions, then this may be quite

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natural for you. But if you didn't, if it was

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more like stiff upper lip and if your parents

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didn't have the vocabulary or the emotional range.

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to really model that for you, then you wouldn't

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have learned it anywhere. You might see it in

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movies or you may have had it modeled by some

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of the people in your life, but it's not going

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to be as natural because it wasn't practiced

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when you were in your formative years. Yeah.

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So listen, you might be someone who's really

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good at this. You might be someone who's challenged

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when it comes to this particular thing. But as

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we explore this topic, I think there's a lot

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for us to learn. As Chris and I were discussing

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it, I felt like we had some big takeaways. So

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the first thing we want to talk about is there's

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a myth around natural deep talk, right? This

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idea that deep conversations just happen when

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things are right, when you get to know somebody.

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And that's not necessarily untrue, but it happens

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a lot less often than I think we maybe want to

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admit. The stars sometimes will align when you're

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in the right place with the right person. Suddenly,

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you know, you're in a diner like in the movies

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and you're pouring your heart out and the cherry

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pie is on its way and you're on your seventh

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cup of coffee and everything's just... just right

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in the moment. But more often than not, great

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conversations are created. They're not going

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to fall out of the sky, right? The intimacy fairy

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is not just going to show up. I would add a slightly

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different spin on that. I would say sometimes

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they do just happen. Like you're on that perfect

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first date where everything's just going well

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and you're vibing and you're clicking and then

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you end up sharing in a deep, meaningful way

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with this person. And so sometimes it does seem

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to just happen. But I think what we're offering

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is if we deconstruct, what was it that led to

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that? It didn't just happen. It didn't just happen.

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There are mechanisms at play. And if you understand

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how all of that works, then you can create it

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at will. What a superpower that would be to be

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able to just create those authentic moments.

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All you really need is a willingness to show

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up with a little more vulnerability than maybe

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you usually show up with. That's a lot of it.

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Yeah. But we don't want to oversimplify, right?

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Like it's such a human connection is such a complex.

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There's a lot to a multivariate thing. Yeah.

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In other episodes, we've had like a five part

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framework for giving feedback or the seven steps

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to a really good apology. This is a lot more

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art than science. And there's no checklist on

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this one necessarily. Yeah. This is going to

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be a lot of feeling things out. There's going

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to be murkiness. There's going to be weirdness.

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And a lot of it is just like learning to be uncomfortable.

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And learning to ride that discomfort and silences

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and pauses into a more deep connection. Yeah.

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And it's less about a formula and it's more about,

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it's a thing to practice and to explore and to

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learn the nuances and contours of experientially

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as you do it. And we're going to give you some

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trailheads and some on -ramps and ways to access

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it and things to look for and experiment with.

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Our hope is that by coming at this from enough

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angles and exploring it in different ways, what

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will emerge out of that is some kind of map of

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the territory that's useful. So why is this important?

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Why does this even matter? First of all, we're

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more connected now than we ever have been. And

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studies show that people are lonelier now than

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ever with all of that connection. A lot of the

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ways in which we connect are very superficial.

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It's very surface level. And people are craving

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things that are deeper. They're craving a realness.

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When I look at the people that I follow, even

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my friends online, that Instagram feed, that

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TikTok feed, that Facebook feed, those are all

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curated. Those are all moments that they've decided

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to share with me. There's a performance there,

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right? There's some reality there as well, but

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it's not steeped in realness. And then the other

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thing that happens is a lot of what we get is

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small talk. And again, there's a time and place

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for small talk. That's not what we're saying

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that you should never lead with that, but...

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Most people don't want another person just giving

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them a, hey, how was work today? Or nice weather

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we're having. They want something like, how are

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you actually doing? They want space to say the

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things that they wouldn't normally say to other

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people. People are craving somebody that they

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can be real with. They can be their authentic

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self with. And yeah, within that disconnect,

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within those online personas, that's getting

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more and more difficult. So that's what we're

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going to explore in this episode, right? How

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to be. that someone for the people in your lives.

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Yeah. I think a lot of us are waiting, waiting

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for someone else to go first or waiting to get

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that signal that this is going to be a deeper

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kind of conversation. Like we want an invitation

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and a sign that it's safe. So let's talk about

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how to create those conditions. How do you get

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to a space where you can truly be your authentic

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self with someone? And there's so much freedom

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in being able to express yourself with that way.

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Part of it is learning, like Chris said, learning

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the signs, how to recognize when a conversation

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wants to go deeper. That's a good point, right?

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Because it's so much nuance to this. We talked

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about creating this kind of conversation, but

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it's also about, it's not like you can just flip

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a switch. You don't want to force or push a conversation

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beyond the level of depth that your counterpart's

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comfortable with. So you're as much reading the

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vibe and reading the room. It's a combination

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of leading, but also reading. the room yeah you

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can read what's there look for an opening and

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then lead it in a deeper direction and then check

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in and see what the response was is this person

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are they meeting me at that level of intimacy

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and are they following or are they making a counteroffer

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none of this is said explicitly typically yeah

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but are they breaking the tension with a joke

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are they kind of right pairing it away or are

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they matching your level of depth and emotionality

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and so stepwise, you make a bid for a deeper

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connection and you see if they respond in kind.

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If they meet you there, then great, you've just

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gone deeper. Yeah. And there are some ways that

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we can create those conditions, right? Like we

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said, this is intentional. This is you setting

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things up. Part of it is reading social cues.

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Some people aren't great at reading social cues.

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If you have difficulty reading social cues, if

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that's something that you struggle with, that

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doesn't mean that this isn't going to work for

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you, right? There are solutions to that problem

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too. Before we get into... the topic of going

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deep with somebody, let's just do a quick reflection.

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Think back to a conversation that you have had

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recently, something that really stuck with you,

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something where something shifted, where your

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understanding shifted, where your connection

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shifted, where you felt someone else's heart.

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And ask yourself, what made that conversation

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feel different? You know, what was said? What

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was allowed to be said? What space was made,

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right? And what made that matter? I've got one

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that pops to mind right away. I was at a party

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five years ago and was meeting some friends.

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One of the friends that met us there brought

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a friend of hers and I ended up sitting on the

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couch next to this woman who I just met and it's

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at this party. There's disco dance music playing

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in the background. And she looks at me and says,

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can I ask you like an unusually deep question?

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I was like, yeah. She said, do you think about

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death a lot? And as it turns out, I do. And I

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was like, yeah, I do. And then we spent an hour

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or two just exploring death at a party. It was

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like, it was bouncy disco house in the background.

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And we're talking about death on the couch, but

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it made for a, like a wonderful connection. And

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like, unsurprisingly, we ended up dating. So

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there you go. But that one jumped to mind. And

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it was like, it was an invitation into a very

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different kind of conversation from what you

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would default to at a party. Very cool. So. Let's

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get into the why not, because before we can go

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deep, we need to understand what stops us, right?

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So why are we not going deep? What stops us from

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going deep? So it's not a lack of time. We've

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got time to talk to people, right? We've got

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space online. It doesn't have to be face -to

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-face. You can have an online conversation that

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can be intimate as well. It's not that we don't

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have anything to say. So really it's that we're

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up against a handful of really... visceral human

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blocks so let's let's break a couple of them

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down yeah spoiler alert fear of vulnerability

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is probably the biggest one there you go uh to

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the surprise of no one so there's the emotional

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blocks and then i would say that some of it is

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which we don't know how or we're not practiced

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at actually initiating this and it it feels scary

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and weird and we just we don't take it any further

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than that that ends the analysis because nope

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yeah we just we just opt out vulnerability is

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a word you hear a lot lately and There's a lot

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of personalities that talk about it, like Brene

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Brown. If you haven't seen her Netflix special,

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she does an hour, an hour and a half. It's like

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an hour and a half long Netflix TED talk on vulnerability.

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Masterful. Absolutely brilliant. So she's worth

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checking out. But what do we mean by vulnerability?

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What is that actually? Because it's a word that

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gets used a lot. What does it mean? Let's unpack

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it. Yeah. It's a fear of something, right? So

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you're exposing something about yourself that's

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maybe personal. You've got some intense emotions

00:12:01.409 --> 00:12:05.370
around. Right. And I would say a lot of it's

00:12:05.370 --> 00:12:08.070
fear of judgment. Right. I'm going to expose

00:12:08.070 --> 00:12:11.110
something to you that maybe isn't, it's not the

00:12:11.110 --> 00:12:14.470
polished resume LinkedIn version of me. It's

00:12:14.470 --> 00:12:16.909
something real. It's maybe a part of myself I'm

00:12:16.909 --> 00:12:20.070
not proud of or feelings I've had that I'm not

00:12:20.070 --> 00:12:22.429
sure it's safe to express because I don't know

00:12:22.429 --> 00:12:23.830
how you're going to react. You might judge me.

00:12:24.009 --> 00:12:27.769
It's a feeling we're afraid of. Right. So I like

00:12:27.769 --> 00:12:30.519
to do this. Thought experiment, whenever there's

00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:33.340
fear, it's what is the thing that you're afraid

00:12:33.340 --> 00:12:35.059
will happen? What's the bad thing you're afraid

00:12:35.059 --> 00:12:38.159
will happen? It's not always obvious why we're

00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:39.740
afraid. What is the thing that would happen,

00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:41.779
right? So let's say I open up and I spill my

00:12:41.779 --> 00:12:44.279
guts out and I share with you a painful experience

00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:46.759
or an embarrassing experience or something. How

00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:48.100
is this going to play out? You're not going to

00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:50.559
physically harm me, probably. So I'm not afraid

00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:52.879
of physical harm. Nope. Maybe you'll laugh at

00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:54.620
me. Maybe you'll reject me. Maybe you'll judge

00:12:54.620 --> 00:12:57.320
me. Judgment, yeah. But then I could equally

00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:01.059
ask, so what? So what if another human forms

00:13:01.059 --> 00:13:03.000
a judgment? We judge each other all the time.

00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:05.200
We're constantly judging each other and mostly

00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:08.500
nothing comes of it. Yeah. Right. And if I think

00:13:08.500 --> 00:13:11.899
about in a given day, if I'm out in the world,

00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:14.399
how many judgments waft through my consciousness

00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:17.179
about random strangers? Dozens, maybe hundreds.

00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:19.620
Right. But how much do I care about any of them?

00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:21.480
I don't care about those judgments. And so they

00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:23.500
should care even less, whatever noise I have

00:13:23.500 --> 00:13:25.820
in my head. Yeah. So why does this matter? I

00:13:25.820 --> 00:13:27.299
think it comes back to something you said earlier

00:13:27.299 --> 00:13:30.100
in a podcast recently about rejection. Yeah.

00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:32.860
About being ostracized, about being made not

00:13:32.860 --> 00:13:34.700
part of the group anymore. Oh, the historical

00:13:34.700 --> 00:13:37.139
evolutionary piece. Yeah. Yeah. If you want to

00:13:37.139 --> 00:13:38.679
just unpack that for us again, for anyone who

00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:41.620
didn't watch our last episode. Yeah. There are

00:13:41.620 --> 00:13:43.120
good historical reasons for this if you look

00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:45.779
at it through an evolutionary lens. So most of

00:13:45.779 --> 00:13:48.820
early human history, for millennia, we grew up

00:13:48.820 --> 00:13:50.840
in these, lived in these tribes of 50 to 150

00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:54.319
people out there in a very dangerous world. and

00:13:54.319 --> 00:13:57.659
we relied on the tribe for our survival. And

00:13:57.659 --> 00:14:00.659
so if you were rejected by the tribe and kicked

00:14:00.659 --> 00:14:02.139
out of the tribe, in the worst case, you'd be

00:14:02.139 --> 00:14:04.200
dead within a week. Being kicked out of the tribe

00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.600
or being ostracized is akin to death. Yeah, hardwired

00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:11.379
to almost equate social rejection with death.

00:14:11.580 --> 00:14:14.340
So that's, I think, a big part of the reason

00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:16.440
why we're so terrified of it. So part of it is

00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:19.059
reminding yourself that that's no longer the

00:14:19.059 --> 00:14:21.960
case, right? Social rejection does not mean death

00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:26.120
anymore. Mostly. Mostly. Right? Unless you're

00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.580
on a ship and they make you walk the plank or

00:14:28.580 --> 00:14:30.559
something. But leave that cruise line a very

00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.799
negative Yelp review. Maybe just make small talk

00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.000
on those kinds of cruises. So the reminder that

00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:38.700
I'm not physically going to be harmed here is

00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:40.519
one thing. But that's not to say there aren't

00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:43.220
actual stakes. If this is a close friendship

00:14:43.220 --> 00:14:47.039
or a relationship that matters to you, then you

00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:49.500
might be afraid of altering the relationship

00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:52.279
or even losing it in some way. And that's a fear.

00:14:52.700 --> 00:14:54.779
That's valid. But here's the thought experiment

00:14:54.779 --> 00:14:57.659
on that one. Yep. Think of a time when somebody

00:14:57.659 --> 00:15:01.659
close to you had the courage to open up and share

00:15:01.659 --> 00:15:04.299
something really vulnerable with you. Did it

00:15:04.299 --> 00:15:07.639
even occur to you to react to them the way that

00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:09.200
you're afraid they're going to react to you?

00:15:09.340 --> 00:15:11.679
Brilliant. Yeah. Probably not. Probably not.

00:15:11.779 --> 00:15:14.860
When someone that we love or that we care about,

00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:18.440
or even someone we know, when they open up and

00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:20.299
they're genuinely vulnerable, for most of us,

00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:23.220
the instinct is, Is to want to connect with them

00:15:23.220 --> 00:15:25.379
and to be like, personally, I feel honored that

00:15:25.379 --> 00:15:27.080
they would feel safe enough with me to do that.

00:15:27.179 --> 00:15:29.779
Yeah. And if anything, like I want to hold that

00:15:29.779 --> 00:15:32.299
sacred and I want to, I want to hold space for

00:15:32.299 --> 00:15:34.539
them and I want to show them like, yes, I am.

00:15:34.539 --> 00:15:36.299
I'm a safe person for you to be vulnerable with.

00:15:36.620 --> 00:15:38.919
Yeah. And, and I'm drawn closer to the person

00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:40.779
and it triggers all of my empathy and all of

00:15:40.779 --> 00:15:43.620
my compassion and like the best parts of me come

00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:46.730
online. And so it's quite the opposite of the

00:15:46.730 --> 00:15:48.929
thing we're afraid of. I can't think of any time

00:15:48.929 --> 00:15:50.990
where I have shared something with a person and

00:15:50.990 --> 00:15:53.210
been vulnerable where I've gotten back what I

00:15:53.210 --> 00:15:56.950
was afraid of. In every case that I can think

00:15:56.950 --> 00:15:59.450
of, it has deepened the connection. They have

00:15:59.450 --> 00:16:02.230
shown genuine care for me and I've walked away

00:16:02.230 --> 00:16:06.009
feeling like it was worth saying or doing. But

00:16:06.009 --> 00:16:08.309
that doesn't make it any less intense and that

00:16:08.309 --> 00:16:11.409
doesn't make it any less scary. to open up and

00:16:11.409 --> 00:16:14.009
it takes real courage, right? And it's been said

00:16:14.009 --> 00:16:17.210
that courage is being afraid to do something

00:16:17.210 --> 00:16:19.350
and then going ahead and doing it anyway. Well,

00:16:19.409 --> 00:16:22.629
that's it. No fear, no courage. Yeah. Courage

00:16:22.629 --> 00:16:24.309
is acting in the face of fear. It's not the absence

00:16:24.309 --> 00:16:27.490
of fear. Yeah. I also heard a interesting little

00:16:27.490 --> 00:16:31.889
soundbite on confidence. Confidence equals fear

00:16:31.889 --> 00:16:35.549
plus survival. So in other words, do the thing

00:16:35.549 --> 00:16:37.570
you're afraid of and notice that you survived

00:16:37.570 --> 00:16:40.309
it and then it's less scary the next time. So

00:16:40.309 --> 00:16:43.090
a lot of fears, fear of rejection, fear of being

00:16:43.090 --> 00:16:45.549
made fun of, fear of not getting anything back.

00:16:46.009 --> 00:16:48.710
What if I say this thing and they just don't

00:16:48.710 --> 00:16:51.570
say anything or they don't care? There's a lot

00:16:51.570 --> 00:16:54.049
of potential pain points with fears. So you're

00:16:54.049 --> 00:16:56.070
just you're pushing through that. What are some

00:16:56.070 --> 00:16:58.389
other blockages? I think another one we touched

00:16:58.389 --> 00:17:00.190
on a little earlier when we were talking about

00:17:00.190 --> 00:17:03.049
this is a lack of modeling, right? Not having

00:17:03.049 --> 00:17:07.190
somebody who has done this well in our own lives.

00:17:07.230 --> 00:17:09.480
It's difficult to do something. that you've never

00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:11.940
seen done well or that you've never experienced

00:17:11.940 --> 00:17:14.539
properly or that you've never seen at all. So

00:17:14.539 --> 00:17:15.839
if you didn't grow up in a home where people

00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:17.920
talked about feelings, where they didn't share

00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:21.319
hard truths with one another, if people sat in

00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:24.220
silence instead of having deep conversations,

00:17:24.500 --> 00:17:28.200
it may feel foreign to you. But here's the thing.

00:17:28.220 --> 00:17:30.940
You don't need a perfect example. You need a

00:17:30.940 --> 00:17:33.480
willingness to do this. You need that courage.

00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:35.480
And then you just need to be able to practice

00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:39.059
it. I've got another one. Yeah. For much of my

00:17:39.059 --> 00:17:41.259
life, when I was younger, I was in this camp

00:17:41.259 --> 00:17:42.920
that we're describing. I didn't know how to talk

00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:44.619
about feelings. And I was also, I was insecure

00:17:44.619 --> 00:17:47.119
and I was afraid of being made fun of. Like talking

00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:49.619
about as a kid growing up, kids can be brutal

00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:52.160
to each other. They can pick on each other. And

00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:53.980
if you show weakness or if you show vulnerability,

00:17:54.259 --> 00:17:56.779
that's equated to weakness. And then you're singled

00:17:56.779 --> 00:18:00.539
out. And that's like a strong negative association

00:18:00.539 --> 00:18:03.940
you make for showing vulnerability. So you learn

00:18:03.940 --> 00:18:06.559
to put up walls and put up defenses and become

00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:10.319
guarded. And then as I started to consciously

00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:12.259
cultivate deeper connections with people and

00:18:12.259 --> 00:18:14.059
expose myself to communities where this kind

00:18:14.059 --> 00:18:16.940
of thing was modeled, what I noticed happening

00:18:16.940 --> 00:18:20.500
was I had groups of people in my life that were

00:18:20.500 --> 00:18:23.079
safe to be vulnerable with. And then when I was

00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:25.400
interacting with people in those groups, I would

00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:28.140
show up and be wide open and go deep because

00:18:28.140 --> 00:18:38.190
I knew it was okay. Right. Oh, so you're making

00:18:38.190 --> 00:18:40.789
judgments about who was okay to have different

00:18:40.789 --> 00:18:42.670
kinds of relationships. Exactly. And I wrote

00:18:42.670 --> 00:18:44.809
off that possibility with certain people in my

00:18:44.809 --> 00:18:46.930
life just because I'd never experienced it with

00:18:46.930 --> 00:18:50.329
them. I'm curious, did at any point you make

00:18:50.329 --> 00:18:54.269
a conscious effort or decision to go deep with

00:18:54.269 --> 00:18:56.130
someone who you had put in that camp? Yeah, and

00:18:56.130 --> 00:18:58.329
they met me there every time that I can think

00:18:58.329 --> 00:19:01.190
of. I can't think of an example where I tried

00:19:01.190 --> 00:19:04.170
and it wasn't met with a surprising willingness

00:19:04.170 --> 00:19:06.950
to meet me there. And it was almost like... The

00:19:06.950 --> 00:19:08.630
experience I had was that they were just waiting.

00:19:08.710 --> 00:19:10.329
They've been wanting this kind of connection

00:19:10.329 --> 00:19:12.910
with me for so long. Maybe they had put me in

00:19:12.910 --> 00:19:15.309
the same box in their mind as not a safe person

00:19:15.309 --> 00:19:17.589
to go deep with because it would have been equally

00:19:17.589 --> 00:19:20.009
valid. One of us had to go first and then the

00:19:20.009 --> 00:19:22.890
other one was like, yes, somebody has to. And

00:19:22.890 --> 00:19:24.089
if you're both waiting for the other one to go

00:19:24.089 --> 00:19:27.670
first, you might be waiting a while. Yeah. What

00:19:27.670 --> 00:19:29.430
are some other blockages? What else gets in the

00:19:29.430 --> 00:19:32.670
way? I would say just not having had the experience

00:19:32.670 --> 00:19:34.960
of doing it. This is very much a... The kind

00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:37.920
of thing you learn by doing. And it's not just

00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.920
what to say, although there are ways into a conversation

00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.240
like this in terms of what to say, but you're

00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:47.259
also practicing dancing in unfamiliar emotional

00:19:47.259 --> 00:19:49.900
spaces. We're all comfortable with talking about

00:19:49.900 --> 00:19:53.279
the weather or the news. That's so well practiced

00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:56.859
and it's familiar. But comfort doesn't mean safety.

00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:59.220
It just means familiar. It means you've experienced

00:19:59.220 --> 00:20:02.630
it before and you can predict. you know that

00:20:02.630 --> 00:20:05.369
you're going to be okay however it goes. So then

00:20:05.369 --> 00:20:08.509
to that end, if I'm practicing going deep and

00:20:08.509 --> 00:20:11.910
being vulnerable and with people that I trust

00:20:11.910 --> 00:20:15.430
and made those connections with, it too will

00:20:15.430 --> 00:20:18.690
start to become familiar. Yeah. This is the kicker

00:20:18.690 --> 00:20:20.849
is the first time you make a bid to go deeper

00:20:20.849 --> 00:20:22.869
with somebody, you don't know how it's going

00:20:22.869 --> 00:20:26.190
to go. Yeah. But the only way to know how it's

00:20:26.190 --> 00:20:28.490
going to go, the only way to become more comfortable

00:20:28.490 --> 00:20:31.089
and familiar with it is to do it. You do it once,

00:20:31.089 --> 00:20:33.049
it goes well. Oh, and you do it again and it

00:20:33.049 --> 00:20:35.410
goes well. And then it can become the kind of

00:20:35.410 --> 00:20:37.430
experience that's normal to you. And then it

00:20:37.430 --> 00:20:39.450
feels just as safe as talking about the weather.

00:20:40.289 --> 00:20:42.670
But the first time you do it, it won't. And the

00:20:42.670 --> 00:20:44.569
first 10 times you do it, it might not. But it's

00:20:44.569 --> 00:20:47.789
absolutely worth it to cultivate this as a place

00:20:47.789 --> 00:20:50.230
you feel comfortable hanging out. And I would

00:20:50.230 --> 00:20:51.809
say that, you know, a lot of people are worried

00:20:51.809 --> 00:20:53.910
about risk. One of the benefits that you gain

00:20:53.910 --> 00:20:56.329
from this is, yes, there's some risk involved.

00:20:56.490 --> 00:20:59.250
Yes, you might face rejection or ridicule or

00:20:59.250 --> 00:21:02.099
whatever else. That also sets you up to know

00:21:02.099 --> 00:21:04.299
who gets put in those boxes that you mentioned,

00:21:04.380 --> 00:21:07.339
right? You can have more depth with way more

00:21:07.339 --> 00:21:09.160
of the people in your life than you think. That

00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:11.900
I can promise you. I would agree wholeheartedly

00:21:11.900 --> 00:21:13.359
with that. There are more people who are willing

00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:15.140
to go there with you than not. Than you know.

00:21:15.259 --> 00:21:18.940
Yeah. And the other question about risk is what's

00:21:18.940 --> 00:21:21.839
the risk if you don't? We don't know how much

00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:24.720
time we have with the people we love. And like

00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:26.819
one of the biggest tragedies is someone close

00:21:26.819 --> 00:21:29.730
to you. Maybe they die suddenly or unexpectedly.

00:21:30.730 --> 00:21:33.009
And you don't want to live with the regret of,

00:21:33.089 --> 00:21:35.890
man, I wish I'd shared more with that person.

00:21:35.930 --> 00:21:39.230
I wish I'd opened up more. Or on your own deathbed,

00:21:39.309 --> 00:21:41.230
looking back saying, why did I hold back? What

00:21:41.230 --> 00:21:43.589
was I so scared of? I often say to people, the

00:21:43.589 --> 00:21:45.509
things that you don't say to the ones that you

00:21:45.509 --> 00:21:47.930
love are things that they don't know. If you

00:21:47.930 --> 00:21:50.750
don't say it, they don't know it. We talked a

00:21:50.750 --> 00:21:53.589
lot about fear. We talked about lack of models.

00:21:53.990 --> 00:21:56.890
I talked about dropping the mask earlier as well.

00:21:57.750 --> 00:21:59.869
That's a way that we can become vulnerable is

00:21:59.869 --> 00:22:03.109
dropping the mask. Sometimes we're so used to

00:22:03.109 --> 00:22:06.150
just being entertaining or being helpful or being

00:22:06.150 --> 00:22:08.329
on, being the person that we think everyone knows

00:22:08.329 --> 00:22:10.890
us to be that we don't know how to be real, right?

00:22:10.970 --> 00:22:12.470
So when I say dropping the mask, what I mean

00:22:12.470 --> 00:22:16.369
is being authentic, being yourself, not being

00:22:16.369 --> 00:22:18.849
the version of yourself that you think other

00:22:18.849 --> 00:22:22.650
people want or the funny person or the person

00:22:22.650 --> 00:22:26.839
who's entertaining, but like someone who... is

00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:29.000
really truly in the moment and able to share

00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:31.039
about themselves. There's a great quote about

00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:33.819
most of what we do is confirm for one another

00:22:33.819 --> 00:22:36.220
that our masks are on straight. All right. Listen,

00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:38.500
performance is great. It's seductive, it's sexy,

00:22:38.539 --> 00:22:40.940
it gets laughs, it gets you attention, but it

00:22:40.940 --> 00:22:42.740
doesn't help you build intimacy and it doesn't

00:22:42.740 --> 00:22:44.799
help you build an authentic connection with a

00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:46.980
person. And to go deep with a person, you have

00:22:46.980 --> 00:22:49.279
to be willing not to be impressive, but rather

00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.700
to be ordinary and to be honest and to be messy.

00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:56.240
To be real. Performance doesn't necessarily mean

00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:59.759
phony. Sometimes it is. But it can also just

00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.400
mean superficial, right? Like there's a gear

00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:06.559
that we're comfortable with. And I think this

00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:08.680
differs along gender lines, too. I think I'm

00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:10.660
going to make a general statement here and with

00:23:10.660 --> 00:23:13.440
all the usual caveats. But I think women in general

00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.019
are much better at having real conversations

00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:18.559
with each other than men, just in terms of how

00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:22.160
we're socialized. Yeah, I would say that my experience

00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:25.319
has been that that's the case as well. one genuine

00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:27.660
authentic connection is not modeled well two

00:23:27.660 --> 00:23:31.559
we are conditioned socially not to do that not

00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:34.680
to reveal our our weaknesses or our vulnerabilities

00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:37.400
because it's not seen as masculine or manly and

00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:40.039
if you're vulnerable that's weak or it's i think

00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:42.640
that that's starting to change there's a shift

00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:46.180
those older stereotypes about masculinity like

00:23:46.180 --> 00:23:49.480
boys don't cry and suck it up and Men are allowed

00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:51.539
to express one emotion, which is anger, but only

00:23:51.539 --> 00:23:53.619
then in certain circumstances and in particular

00:23:53.619 --> 00:23:55.759
ways. You can pound the table in the boardroom

00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:58.279
and now you're the alpha male leader. Or, you

00:23:58.279 --> 00:23:59.819
know, you can yell at someone to get what you

00:23:59.819 --> 00:24:02.339
want. And it's not the whole story. No, not at

00:24:02.339 --> 00:24:07.299
all. And it's letting go of looking good. Yeah,

00:24:07.339 --> 00:24:09.980
that's a huge part of it. Right? We do so much

00:24:09.980 --> 00:24:13.160
impression management where we're presenting

00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:16.680
ourselves in such a way as to look good, whatever

00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:18.750
good means in the given setting. You want to

00:24:18.750 --> 00:24:21.390
look funny or you want to look charismatic or

00:24:21.390 --> 00:24:23.990
you want to look put together. Yeah. You want

00:24:23.990 --> 00:24:25.650
to be nurturing. You want to be smart. You want

00:24:25.650 --> 00:24:27.769
to be whatever that is. Whatever it is. Yeah.

00:24:27.970 --> 00:24:30.309
But if it's managed, that's, I think, goes back

00:24:30.309 --> 00:24:31.509
to what you were saying about how it's a bit

00:24:31.509 --> 00:24:33.250
performative. It's a bit performative. I mean,

00:24:33.250 --> 00:24:34.769
it doesn't mean it's not authentic and it's not

00:24:34.769 --> 00:24:36.950
who you are, but it's not all of who you are.

00:24:37.769 --> 00:24:39.910
Right. It's the highlight reel. It's back to

00:24:39.910 --> 00:24:42.369
social media and it's the vacation photos and

00:24:42.369 --> 00:24:45.410
the gourmet dinner. It's that curated version

00:24:45.410 --> 00:24:48.130
of you that you want everyone to see. It's not

00:24:48.130 --> 00:24:51.250
disingenuous, but... It's just selective. It's

00:24:51.250 --> 00:24:54.130
selective. And it's managed. It's like I'm deliberately

00:24:54.130 --> 00:24:58.230
putting forward a particular persona. And sometimes

00:24:58.230 --> 00:25:00.950
that's appropriate. Sure. But like in a job interview,

00:25:01.190 --> 00:25:03.829
you don't necessarily want to burst into tears.

00:25:03.970 --> 00:25:06.609
Yeah. No, you don't want to reveal all the warts

00:25:06.609 --> 00:25:09.690
in a job interview. That also doesn't mean that

00:25:09.690 --> 00:25:12.210
you can't be authentic with the people that you

00:25:12.210 --> 00:25:14.029
work with, but there's a time and a place for

00:25:14.029 --> 00:25:16.089
that as well. So difficulty dropping the mask.

00:25:16.909 --> 00:25:19.329
Fear, fear of looking bad or not looking good.

00:25:19.869 --> 00:25:21.829
And also just lack of practice. That's going

00:25:21.829 --> 00:25:24.170
to be a theme that runs through this is just

00:25:24.170 --> 00:25:26.349
not having had the experience of doing it. And

00:25:26.349 --> 00:25:28.309
getting it and giving yourself the opportunity

00:25:28.309 --> 00:25:30.490
and the permission to get that experience. That's

00:25:30.490 --> 00:25:32.569
right. Other things that block people, emotional

00:25:32.569 --> 00:25:37.089
bandwidth. I don't have the time to deal with

00:25:37.089 --> 00:25:38.869
this, the energy to deal with this. I had to

00:25:38.869 --> 00:25:41.470
work today, managing my own mental health, managing

00:25:41.470 --> 00:25:43.910
my own emotional bandwidth. Maybe my family has

00:25:43.910 --> 00:25:45.569
some things that they're going through. And I

00:25:45.569 --> 00:25:49.109
just don't have the capacity right now to go

00:25:49.109 --> 00:25:52.130
deep with another person, to bear witness to

00:25:52.130 --> 00:25:55.490
their vulnerable state or their authentic self,

00:25:55.589 --> 00:25:58.650
or to reveal that about myself because I'm trying

00:25:58.650 --> 00:26:01.690
to keep it all together right now. And if I have

00:26:01.690 --> 00:26:03.829
an authentic conversation or an authentic moment,

00:26:03.990 --> 00:26:05.750
I'm just going to fall apart. You might break

00:26:05.750 --> 00:26:07.750
down. Yeah, I might break down. So some days

00:26:07.750 --> 00:26:10.549
you're just running on fumes and you're too tired,

00:26:10.609 --> 00:26:12.670
you're too tapped, you're too spent. That can

00:26:12.670 --> 00:26:17.130
go both ways. depleted of resources that you

00:26:17.130 --> 00:26:19.029
can't hold the mask up anymore right and it just

00:26:19.029 --> 00:26:21.789
kind of falls yeah and then finally you the tears

00:26:21.789 --> 00:26:24.430
come out and you you know your next thing you

00:26:24.430 --> 00:26:26.750
know you're you're whatever it is you're sitting

00:26:26.750 --> 00:26:28.190
next to your best friend and you're kind of crying

00:26:28.190 --> 00:26:30.269
into a pillow and finally this thing you've been

00:26:30.269 --> 00:26:33.910
dying to share with someone anyone yeah comes

00:26:33.910 --> 00:26:36.710
out yeah and a lot of this i think has to do

00:26:36.710 --> 00:26:39.269
with agency and choice if you have the ability

00:26:39.269 --> 00:26:41.990
to go deep and you just choose not to in a particular

00:26:41.990 --> 00:26:45.299
situation There's a way that that can be a conscious

00:26:45.299 --> 00:26:48.200
choice. Sure. But if that's always the choice

00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:50.160
you make and you've never made the other choice.

00:26:50.259 --> 00:26:51.579
That tells you something about yourself. For

00:26:51.579 --> 00:26:53.859
sure. You might be lying to yourself. Yeah. If

00:26:53.859 --> 00:26:55.240
you don't have a driver's license, you're not

00:26:55.240 --> 00:27:00.160
choosing to take the bus. Another way in which

00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:02.519
we can feel blocked in being authentic and being

00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:05.960
vulnerable with people is we often wait for permission

00:27:05.960 --> 00:27:09.039
to have those kinds of talks, right? Totally.

00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:10.779
And you mentioned that earlier. It's like being

00:27:10.779 --> 00:27:13.839
the first. Because when I'm the first, someone

00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:15.779
might have had that longing for a really long

00:27:15.779 --> 00:27:17.599
time. Like, I really wish that I could talk to

00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:19.380
Chris about this thing, but I don't know if he's

00:27:19.380 --> 00:27:21.319
going to laugh at me or if he's going to, I don't

00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:23.799
know if I can trust the space. And if I just

00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:26.700
speak authentically, that might just unlock that

00:27:26.700 --> 00:27:28.559
for the other person. So a lot of times we're

00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:30.920
waiting for permission. It's subtle, but it's

00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:33.339
probably, it might be one of the biggest reasons

00:27:33.339 --> 00:27:35.400
why. So you talked about fear being one of the

00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:37.640
biggest ones. I would say that this is maybe

00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:39.539
in contention for number one. It's very much

00:27:39.539 --> 00:27:41.680
in the same ballpark, right? You're waiting for

00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:45.319
a sign that this is okay, an invitation or permission,

00:27:45.539 --> 00:27:48.779
but the other person might be waiting for permission

00:27:48.779 --> 00:27:51.599
from you as well. So somebody has to go first.

00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.200
Yeah, nobody wants to make it weird. Yeah. Yeah.

00:27:54.279 --> 00:27:56.519
And then, so how do you do this, right? There's

00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.019
a million ways. You can just ask, like, are you

00:28:00.019 --> 00:28:01.220
open to talking about something a little bit

00:28:01.220 --> 00:28:03.599
deeper or a little bit more? I have something

00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:05.200
to share with you and it's a bit vulnerable.

00:28:06.009 --> 00:28:08.009
Are you okay with that? Yeah. You can explicitly

00:28:08.009 --> 00:28:10.869
ask for permission. That's one way to do it.

00:28:11.289 --> 00:28:14.849
Another way that we kind of can gauge permission

00:28:14.849 --> 00:28:17.769
without explicitly asking, if you want, is make

00:28:17.769 --> 00:28:20.430
baby steps towards it. You can inch towards a

00:28:20.430 --> 00:28:22.890
thing by making a little bit, by modeling it,

00:28:22.930 --> 00:28:24.670
by saying something a little bit deeper. Like,

00:28:24.690 --> 00:28:27.230
you know what? I've been feeling sad lately.

00:28:28.029 --> 00:28:30.569
That's not super vulnerable. It's more vulnerable

00:28:30.569 --> 00:28:32.720
than... I mean, how about those maple leaves?

00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:35.180
Right. Yeah. But, and then, and then see how

00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:37.500
they respond. Like if they, if they brush past

00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:39.819
it, like, yeah, I'm sad about the leaves too.

00:28:40.019 --> 00:28:43.599
Ha ha. Right. Okay. So that bid was, they didn't

00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:45.240
meet you there. Right. And then maybe that's

00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:47.019
as far as you have to go. Right. You didn't risk

00:28:47.019 --> 00:28:50.339
anything huge. You just, you hinted at a desire

00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:52.400
to go deeper and then you watched for their response.

00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:55.819
Whereas in contrast, if they pause. And their

00:28:55.819 --> 00:28:57.619
tone shifts and they get more present and they

00:28:57.619 --> 00:29:00.220
say, oh, well, tell me about that. Like, do you

00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:02.420
want to talk about it? What's on your mind? That's

00:29:02.420 --> 00:29:05.240
permission. Conversations, there's a dance that

00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:07.920
we do, right? There's the content of the conversation,

00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:10.099
the actual things we're saying and doing. But

00:29:10.099 --> 00:29:12.619
then there's the underlying, what's the connection

00:29:12.619 --> 00:29:15.880
dance? You want to read what's happening in the

00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:19.279
relational space and you can make a bid to go

00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:20.559
deeper. If I say, you know what, I've been feeling

00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:23.339
kind of sad lately. I'm not just sharing that

00:29:23.339 --> 00:29:25.480
because it's a fact. Right. You know, it's been

00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:27.680
really cloudy lately. That's also a fact. But

00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:30.680
what I'm doing is I'm testing the waters. I'm

00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:33.019
saying like, I want to share something with you

00:29:33.019 --> 00:29:35.059
that's a little bit deeper. Yeah. Are you open

00:29:35.059 --> 00:29:37.299
to going there? Are you a safe person to share

00:29:37.299 --> 00:29:40.359
this with right now? Yeah. Can we engage in this

00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:42.720
dance? Yeah. And I think one of the points here

00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:44.880
is that this isn't necessarily an all or nothing

00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:46.859
thing. And there are ways to just dip a toe in

00:29:46.859 --> 00:29:50.299
the water and you can inch towards it. So that

00:29:50.299 --> 00:29:52.650
maybe. Maybe that helps with the fear. Yeah,

00:29:52.710 --> 00:29:54.730
it helps de -risk it a little bit and makes it

00:29:54.730 --> 00:29:58.750
a thing you can titrate, you can play with in

00:29:58.750 --> 00:30:02.869
a way that's more subtle and safer. So now that

00:30:02.869 --> 00:30:05.369
we've unpacked all of those different blocks,

00:30:05.589 --> 00:30:07.529
right? We talked about waiting for permission.

00:30:07.589 --> 00:30:09.849
We talked about fear. Is there one that resonated

00:30:09.849 --> 00:30:12.529
for you? Which one of these blocks shows up for

00:30:12.529 --> 00:30:14.849
you the most, right? Take a second and reflect.

00:30:15.390 --> 00:30:17.769
What are you afraid might happen if you went

00:30:17.769 --> 00:30:20.289
there with someone close? What's the thing that

00:30:20.289 --> 00:30:23.470
you're so afraid of? And is that a valid fear?

00:30:23.589 --> 00:30:26.170
Yeah. Does it hold water? Is it likely to happen?

00:30:26.309 --> 00:30:28.849
Right. Or would the person have to be an absolute

00:30:28.849 --> 00:30:31.289
monster to respond that way? And do you really

00:30:31.289 --> 00:30:33.829
think they are that monster? And if not, then

00:30:33.829 --> 00:30:36.470
this is really unlikely. And if so, why are they

00:30:36.470 --> 00:30:38.230
in your life? Why are you hanging around with

00:30:38.230 --> 00:30:40.410
monsters? That's also a fair question. So some

00:30:40.410 --> 00:30:42.309
of them can be debunked based on just extreme

00:30:42.309 --> 00:30:46.220
unlikelihood of outcome. Yeah. Another way to

00:30:46.220 --> 00:30:49.420
take some of the sting off is, okay, say they

00:30:49.420 --> 00:30:51.339
did react in the way that I'm afraid of. Like,

00:30:51.339 --> 00:30:53.180
let's say it passes the first gate where it's

00:30:53.180 --> 00:30:55.359
not preposterous that they would respond that

00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:58.680
way. It's possible. Right. Okay. So what? Then

00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:02.240
what? Would you survive that? Is that an experience

00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:04.900
you can handle? Right. Because you can handle

00:31:04.900 --> 00:31:06.980
what's, like, you will physically survive, almost

00:31:06.980 --> 00:31:08.680
certainly, unless they're going to attack you

00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:11.079
violently, which they probably won't. Likely

00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:13.599
not going to happen. And again, if you're hanging

00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:16.349
out with those kinds of people, Why? Why? Yeah.

00:31:16.589 --> 00:31:19.210
So you're going to survive physically. So what

00:31:19.210 --> 00:31:20.569
is it that you're actually afraid of? You're

00:31:20.569 --> 00:31:23.769
afraid of an emotion. So they're going to look

00:31:23.769 --> 00:31:25.109
at you a certain way or they're going to say

00:31:25.109 --> 00:31:27.170
a certain thing. Maybe they'll laugh. Maybe they'll

00:31:27.170 --> 00:31:29.390
ignore you or maybe they'll be awkward and change

00:31:29.390 --> 00:31:32.549
the subject. And then you'll feel something.

00:31:32.849 --> 00:31:37.890
Yeah. But the punchline is it's something you've

00:31:37.890 --> 00:31:40.509
already felt. Otherwise, you wouldn't be afraid

00:31:40.509 --> 00:31:42.970
of feeling it. We can't be afraid of feelings

00:31:42.970 --> 00:31:46.180
we haven't yet had. Yeah. And every time you've

00:31:46.180 --> 00:31:48.380
had that feeling in the past, you survived it.

00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:53.160
So that's another frame on it, which is even

00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:54.980
in the worst case, like I'll have a feeling that's

00:31:54.980 --> 00:31:57.099
uncomfortable and then I'll be fine. And I'll

00:31:57.099 --> 00:32:01.400
be okay. So one last thing to reflect on, if

00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:03.680
you're avoiding going deep with someone, if you're

00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:06.779
avoiding being vulnerable with someone, what

00:32:06.779 --> 00:32:10.920
might you gain if you just leaned into it? Yeah.

00:32:11.500 --> 00:32:13.380
The first question we just were engaging with

00:32:13.380 --> 00:32:15.390
is, What are the things that get in the way?

00:32:15.450 --> 00:32:18.990
Why do we avoid going deeper with someone? What

00:32:18.990 --> 00:32:21.390
if we flip that and say, okay, what are the things

00:32:21.390 --> 00:32:23.109
that make it possible? What are the conditions

00:32:23.109 --> 00:32:26.509
that facilitate these deeper conversations? So

00:32:26.509 --> 00:32:30.490
what do we need in order to create space for

00:32:30.490 --> 00:32:33.250
depth and vulnerability? First one I think is

00:32:33.250 --> 00:32:36.309
emotional safety or sometimes it's called psychological

00:32:36.309 --> 00:32:38.609
safety. Maybe those are two slightly different

00:32:38.609 --> 00:32:41.470
things, but it's that feeling that this will

00:32:41.470 --> 00:32:44.480
be safe. And what's the source of safety is another

00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.799
good question. Over time, when you've had repeated

00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:49.960
conversations and experiences with someone that

00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:52.420
went well, then that's evidence for safety and

00:32:52.420 --> 00:32:55.099
you become conditioned to know that this is a

00:32:55.099 --> 00:32:56.779
safe person to do that with. But you don't get

00:32:56.779 --> 00:33:01.200
that the first time. So the first time, what

00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:03.220
would create safety? Well, you might have evidence.

00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:05.940
You may have seen this person be very nurturing

00:33:05.940 --> 00:33:08.799
with others. And then you get the sense that,

00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:10.119
oh, this is probably a safe person to be that

00:33:10.119 --> 00:33:12.990
way with. Another source of safety is that it

00:33:12.990 --> 00:33:16.630
comes from within. And that's, I think, the much

00:33:16.630 --> 00:33:20.269
more reliable one. A deep knowledge within yourself

00:33:20.269 --> 00:33:24.549
that you can handle whatever emotional space

00:33:24.549 --> 00:33:26.369
you may have to navigate in the conversation.

00:33:26.670 --> 00:33:30.930
And that allows you to bring the safety. Now

00:33:30.930 --> 00:33:34.529
it's safe because you don't require them to show

00:33:34.529 --> 00:33:37.089
up a certain way or respond a certain way or

00:33:37.089 --> 00:33:40.019
to do or not do any particular thing. you're

00:33:40.019 --> 00:33:42.539
just safe you've got that deep grounded from

00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:46.059
within sense of safety and that's that's when

00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:48.500
you're bulletproof yeah right and there's a lot

00:33:48.500 --> 00:33:51.019
of ways to arrive at that that deep sense of

00:33:51.019 --> 00:33:54.099
comfort and like rock solidness in yourself if

00:33:54.099 --> 00:33:55.920
you open up and you make a bid to be vulnerable

00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:00.500
and somebody reacts in a in a negative way some

00:34:00.500 --> 00:34:02.400
way other than how you want it they laugh they

00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:05.630
shut down they get awkward recognize that doesn't

00:34:05.630 --> 00:34:07.869
mean anything about you. Yeah. Yeah. That says

00:34:07.869 --> 00:34:10.349
more about them. If they change the subject or

00:34:10.349 --> 00:34:12.190
crack a joke, that's just a reflection that they're

00:34:12.190 --> 00:34:14.409
not comfortable with that level of intimacy.

00:34:14.630 --> 00:34:16.030
Doesn't mean anything about you. Doesn't mean

00:34:16.030 --> 00:34:18.150
anything about the relationship. And it's still

00:34:18.150 --> 00:34:20.210
okay. It's okay to make a bid for connection

00:34:20.210 --> 00:34:23.210
and have that bid rejected. It's a perfectly

00:34:23.210 --> 00:34:26.030
safe thing. We have to understand too, like sometimes

00:34:26.030 --> 00:34:29.849
that's how people deal with tension. Maybe we

00:34:29.849 --> 00:34:32.050
can push past that. Maybe you're not interested

00:34:32.050 --> 00:34:33.750
in going past that. Maybe that tells you everything

00:34:33.750 --> 00:34:35.889
you need to know. You get to make those decisions.

00:34:36.349 --> 00:34:38.510
What else do we need in order to create connections?

00:34:38.690 --> 00:34:41.610
So we talked about emotional safety. The next

00:34:41.610 --> 00:34:43.969
thing we need is we need presence. We need people

00:34:43.969 --> 00:34:46.590
to be present. We need to be present. So it's

00:34:46.590 --> 00:34:49.769
going to require attention, right? So no distractions.

00:34:50.010 --> 00:34:53.210
We don't have phones going off. We don't have

00:34:53.210 --> 00:34:56.550
televisions on, or if we do, we're ignoring it.

00:34:56.610 --> 00:34:58.909
We're mindful of the space that we're in, like

00:34:58.909 --> 00:35:01.170
your party, like you talked about, right? Right.

00:35:01.250 --> 00:35:02.650
You're on the couch. Well, that was an interesting

00:35:02.650 --> 00:35:05.590
one because we were present with each other and

00:35:05.590 --> 00:35:07.670
there's lots of noise and people dancing in the

00:35:07.670 --> 00:35:10.050
background, but we were still just very much

00:35:10.050 --> 00:35:12.349
tuned into each other in the conversation. And

00:35:12.349 --> 00:35:14.889
there was a presence. It was like we'd carved

00:35:14.889 --> 00:35:17.989
out our own little world with a backdrop of a

00:35:17.989 --> 00:35:20.809
crowd, which you can do. I feel like that often

00:35:20.809 --> 00:35:23.670
happens. Like when I feel like I have that safety

00:35:23.670 --> 00:35:25.510
that you talked about, that emotional safety,

00:35:25.750 --> 00:35:28.269
then the rest of the world can be doing whatever

00:35:28.269 --> 00:35:30.820
they're doing and it just falls away. And I'm

00:35:30.820 --> 00:35:35.480
just in that moment. What presence is not is

00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:39.019
us waiting for our turn to speak, us waiting

00:35:39.019 --> 00:35:41.539
for our turn to give advice, us looking to be

00:35:41.539 --> 00:35:43.679
so smart. You're not in your head thinking about

00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:45.820
what you're going to say. You quiet your mind

00:35:45.820 --> 00:35:47.719
and your attention is on the other person with

00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:50.900
curiosity. We did an episode on the five levels

00:35:50.900 --> 00:35:52.940
of listening, which it might make sense to link

00:35:52.940 --> 00:35:56.639
to here because we go much deeper into levels

00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:59.340
of listening and presence. And you want to bring

00:35:59.340 --> 00:36:02.389
your A -game. Yeah. To the other person, but

00:36:02.389 --> 00:36:05.349
also like be present in your own body and in

00:36:05.349 --> 00:36:07.329
your own experience. A lot of the time we walk

00:36:07.329 --> 00:36:09.449
through life just living in a world of thought.

00:36:10.630 --> 00:36:12.710
You call it being in your head. Yeah. You're

00:36:12.710 --> 00:36:17.110
in this conceptual intellectualized realm and

00:36:17.110 --> 00:36:18.730
you're not actually in touch with what you're

00:36:18.730 --> 00:36:20.949
feeling in your body and in your emotions. And

00:36:20.949 --> 00:36:24.010
emotions are physical sensations. Yeah. We feel

00:36:24.010 --> 00:36:27.289
them in our bodies. So it's like a mindfulness

00:36:27.289 --> 00:36:30.670
thing. dropping into what's going on with you

00:36:30.670 --> 00:36:33.849
and then sharing it with someone else. If you're

00:36:33.849 --> 00:36:36.190
not in touch with yourself, then you have a superficial,

00:36:36.409 --> 00:36:39.369
shallow relationship to yourself. And you can't

00:36:39.369 --> 00:36:41.329
possibly go deep with someone else when you're

00:36:41.329 --> 00:36:44.130
shallow with yourself. If you don't know yourself,

00:36:44.349 --> 00:36:46.489
then how is anyone else going to know you? I

00:36:46.489 --> 00:36:48.909
would say it slightly differently because knowing

00:36:48.909 --> 00:36:52.170
yourself, again, there's a risk of it going back

00:36:52.170 --> 00:36:54.269
into a head type knowledge, right? Okay. Being

00:36:54.269 --> 00:36:56.730
aware of what your experience is on a deeper

00:36:56.730 --> 00:36:59.070
level. Because that's what you want to share

00:36:59.070 --> 00:37:01.630
with the other person. It's not so much a story

00:37:01.630 --> 00:37:04.469
about something. I can share with you about a

00:37:04.469 --> 00:37:06.849
painful experience that happened. I can say,

00:37:06.989 --> 00:37:09.809
you know, I was dating this person and she broke

00:37:09.809 --> 00:37:11.989
up with me. Right. And I can just describe it

00:37:11.989 --> 00:37:14.070
very factually and be completely out of touch

00:37:14.070 --> 00:37:15.789
with my feelings. Right. And then that's not

00:37:15.789 --> 00:37:17.329
very authentic for me. That's not necessarily

00:37:17.329 --> 00:37:19.230
vulnerable. It's like, oh, here's a thing that

00:37:19.230 --> 00:37:20.710
happened, by the way. And, you know, the Jays

00:37:20.710 --> 00:37:22.849
lost last night. Right. Yeah. And it's just sort

00:37:22.849 --> 00:37:25.429
of a story. Yeah. Or I can actually be in touch

00:37:25.429 --> 00:37:27.820
with how that felt. And I can share from that

00:37:27.820 --> 00:37:31.619
place and say, I'm heartbroken. Right. And there's

00:37:31.619 --> 00:37:34.420
a very different. And now I'm sharing my feelings,

00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:37.639
my experience, not just the not just the facts

00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:40.559
of it. And it's not an intellectualized story.

00:37:40.780 --> 00:37:43.460
It's I'm in touch with my feelings and I'm willing

00:37:43.460 --> 00:37:45.860
to experience them in your presence. Yeah. We

00:37:45.860 --> 00:37:48.659
have a dear friend who he always says, like,

00:37:48.659 --> 00:37:50.139
in order to get out of your head, stop looking

00:37:50.139 --> 00:37:53.039
up, start looking down, you know, hand on your

00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:56.210
chest. and feel what's in here and resonate with

00:37:56.210 --> 00:37:58.369
what's authentic. Because when we look up and

00:37:58.369 --> 00:37:59.769
that's where all the thoughts are dancing. Yeah,

00:37:59.769 --> 00:38:01.809
we're looking for concepts and thoughts up here,

00:38:01.909 --> 00:38:05.449
but you want to come down into your body and

00:38:05.449 --> 00:38:07.070
get in touch with what you're experiencing. Because

00:38:07.070 --> 00:38:09.650
whatever you're experiencing is inside your skin.

00:38:09.690 --> 00:38:12.650
It's not up there. I can remember actually, I

00:38:12.650 --> 00:38:14.829
was speaking with him and sort of looking up

00:38:14.829 --> 00:38:16.170
and thinking, he said, what are you looking at?

00:38:16.849 --> 00:38:19.789
What's up there? We talked about having difficult

00:38:19.789 --> 00:38:22.369
conversations in a different... episode as well

00:38:22.369 --> 00:38:25.309
and part of that was openness and a willingness

00:38:25.309 --> 00:38:29.710
to be in an uncomfortable space and when i say

00:38:29.710 --> 00:38:32.849
openness sometimes people confuse openness with

00:38:32.849 --> 00:38:35.969
being in agreement with a person right i'm not

00:38:35.969 --> 00:38:37.349
talking about being in agreement we don't have

00:38:37.349 --> 00:38:39.949
to be agreeable in order to be open we just have

00:38:39.949 --> 00:38:42.429
to make room for their experience and what do

00:38:42.429 --> 00:38:45.030
we mean when we say being open to someone else's

00:38:45.030 --> 00:38:48.369
experience what uh like if we double click on

00:38:48.369 --> 00:38:51.750
that just listening to whatever it is that they

00:38:51.750 --> 00:38:54.010
have to share without judgment. Or without trying

00:38:54.010 --> 00:38:55.190
to fix it or change it. Without trying to fix

00:38:55.190 --> 00:38:56.889
it or change it. Especially if someone's in an

00:38:56.889 --> 00:38:59.309
uncomfortable emotional state, there can be this

00:38:59.309 --> 00:39:01.929
habit of, oh, it'll be okay, or it's going to

00:39:01.929 --> 00:39:04.590
be okay, or, oh, they're in a better place. Or

00:39:04.590 --> 00:39:08.730
like saying something to try to diffuse it. I

00:39:08.730 --> 00:39:10.550
would say being open to someone's experiences,

00:39:10.550 --> 00:39:13.650
just being willing to be with them in it without

00:39:13.650 --> 00:39:16.130
requiring anything to change. And it's like the

00:39:16.130 --> 00:39:19.230
underlying message, whether you say it, explicitly

00:39:19.230 --> 00:39:21.829
or whether it's just in between the lines is

00:39:21.829 --> 00:39:26.469
i'm here for you i'm willing to witness you in

00:39:26.469 --> 00:39:28.590
this experience and nothing has to change right

00:39:28.590 --> 00:39:30.409
it's okay for you to be experiencing whatever

00:39:30.409 --> 00:39:34.389
you're experiencing and i i'm here for it and

00:39:34.389 --> 00:39:36.809
i have the capacity to just be with you in this

00:39:36.809 --> 00:39:38.789
discomfort and nothing has to change this is

00:39:38.789 --> 00:39:40.929
that you're having a human experience that is

00:39:40.929 --> 00:39:43.250
perfectly appropriate given what you're sharing

00:39:43.250 --> 00:39:47.030
and it's this is safe it's safe for you to be

00:39:47.030 --> 00:39:50.059
this real with me And I think a critical component

00:39:50.059 --> 00:39:52.300
to that is not requiring any of it to change.

00:39:52.539 --> 00:39:56.239
And it sounds so simple. That's what's so rare

00:39:56.239 --> 00:39:58.980
is just being able to be with somebody, whatever

00:39:58.980 --> 00:40:02.679
experience they're having and not needing anything

00:40:02.679 --> 00:40:06.280
to be different. Like you're absolutely fine

00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:10.380
as you are right now. And I love you. No conditions.

00:40:10.940 --> 00:40:13.420
If you can get there and practice being in that

00:40:13.420 --> 00:40:18.349
place, such a gift. Yeah. What other conditions

00:40:18.349 --> 00:40:21.889
do we need in order to make space for vulnerability?

00:40:22.489 --> 00:40:25.289
That's a great one. I mean, there's some practical

00:40:25.289 --> 00:40:29.150
stuff, right? Like time. If you're wanting to

00:40:29.150 --> 00:40:30.849
have a lengthier conversation with somebody,

00:40:30.909 --> 00:40:32.889
you want to make sure you're not in a rush, you're

00:40:32.889 --> 00:40:34.929
not on the way out the door. Right. Like the

00:40:34.929 --> 00:40:38.210
obvious practical considerations. Yeah. So, I

00:40:38.210 --> 00:40:39.809
mean, just being real about that, right? Hey,

00:40:39.829 --> 00:40:42.309
listen, I don't actually have time for this right

00:40:42.309 --> 00:40:44.389
now, but I do want to have this conversation

00:40:44.389 --> 00:40:46.150
with you when I'm not running out the door late

00:40:46.150 --> 00:40:51.030
for work. Yeah. I remember I had a call coming

00:40:51.030 --> 00:40:54.550
up in like 15 minutes. And when I was dating

00:40:54.550 --> 00:40:56.889
at the time, we were kind of co -working from

00:40:56.889 --> 00:40:59.809
her place out of different rooms. And it was

00:40:59.809 --> 00:41:01.630
like this brief break in between calls. And she

00:41:01.630 --> 00:41:05.050
brought something up that was, in my view, it

00:41:05.050 --> 00:41:07.230
was quite likely that it was going to escalate

00:41:07.230 --> 00:41:09.610
into an argument. Right. And I was like, do you

00:41:09.610 --> 00:41:11.449
really want to bring this up right now with the

00:41:11.449 --> 00:41:14.909
eight minutes? And I was like, oh, you're right.

00:41:14.949 --> 00:41:17.179
Pause. We'll come back to this. Yeah. I mean,

00:41:17.179 --> 00:41:20.380
that takes a lot too, right? That takes an authentic

00:41:20.380 --> 00:41:22.480
relationship to be able to say like, hey, listen,

00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:24.880
I do want to have this conversation with you.

00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:27.480
This is not a time that's going to work. Can

00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.619
we just hit the pause button and not get heightened

00:41:30.619 --> 00:41:33.000
about that and not get agitated or activated

00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:35.099
about the fact that like, I can't speak to you

00:41:35.099 --> 00:41:36.360
about this right now. It's not that you're not

00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:38.000
important. It's not that this is not important.

00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:40.639
There's just like life is in the way right now.

00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:42.539
Yeah. And it could be you don't have a lot of

00:41:42.539 --> 00:41:45.170
time or it could be like. you're in the middle

00:41:45.170 --> 00:41:46.769
of making dinner or you've got toddlers running

00:41:46.769 --> 00:41:49.650
around and it's like, create the physical conditions

00:41:49.650 --> 00:41:52.730
and the logistical conditions that are workable

00:41:52.730 --> 00:41:54.150
for this kind of conversation. Well, because

00:41:54.150 --> 00:41:56.010
if we have a stressful environment that can hijack

00:41:56.010 --> 00:41:58.150
the conversation too, right? That can, or even

00:41:58.150 --> 00:42:00.449
just the distraction of it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

00:42:01.750 --> 00:42:04.670
Here's something kind of pragmatic. This may

00:42:04.670 --> 00:42:07.309
or may not be comfortable for you or applicable

00:42:07.309 --> 00:42:08.829
or appropriate in all of your relationships,

00:42:08.869 --> 00:42:11.090
but like there are things you can do to really

00:42:11.090 --> 00:42:15.190
drop into a conscious. shared space with somebody.

00:42:15.650 --> 00:42:18.650
And if you're someone who has done breathing

00:42:18.650 --> 00:42:20.929
exercises or meditation, and if that's like a

00:42:20.929 --> 00:42:23.469
shared thing, or even if it's not, you can suggest

00:42:23.469 --> 00:42:25.190
it and see if the other person is open to it.

00:42:25.250 --> 00:42:27.489
But we've had calls where there's a conscious

00:42:27.489 --> 00:42:30.230
intention to open up and be real within a group

00:42:30.230 --> 00:42:33.070
of other people. And we would start the call

00:42:33.070 --> 00:42:35.269
with just acknowledging we've all just come here

00:42:35.269 --> 00:42:37.269
from whatever our busy day was, and our minds

00:42:37.269 --> 00:42:40.269
are probably half on traffic or work or dinner

00:42:40.269 --> 00:42:44.460
or whatever it is. stop, and then everyone take

00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:46.059
a few deep breaths. And you can just close your

00:42:46.059 --> 00:42:50.659
eyes and take like five or six deep breaths with

00:42:50.659 --> 00:42:53.119
the intention of just down -regulating your nervous

00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:57.440
system, dropping in, releasing all of that noise

00:42:57.440 --> 00:43:00.679
and stress. And you can do like a two -minute

00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:03.860
little breathing meditation. And then when you

00:43:03.860 --> 00:43:06.880
open your eyes, you're naturally more present.

00:43:07.179 --> 00:43:10.659
You can shift gears consciously with the person.

00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:13.719
And it's like, okay. Now I've shaken off whatever

00:43:13.719 --> 00:43:17.699
was on my mind from before and it's a conscious

00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:21.280
way to shift contexts and drop in. Yeah, that's

00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:23.460
a great one. Another one that we've done, just

00:43:23.460 --> 00:43:27.659
giving people a minute to say whatever is present

00:43:27.659 --> 00:43:31.019
for them currently because sometimes if I don't

00:43:31.019 --> 00:43:33.719
speak it out loud, it just lives in my head.

00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:37.420
It's just there and I can't get rid of it. So

00:43:37.420 --> 00:43:40.280
just giving people the opportunity to just say,

00:43:40.360 --> 00:43:43.880
hey. this is in my space right now and I need

00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:45.820
to just speak it and get it out. And now that

00:43:45.820 --> 00:43:48.739
I've said it, I can pick it up later. And the

00:43:48.739 --> 00:43:50.800
key there is as you're doing that, you're not

00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:52.960
saying it in order to fall down the rabbit hole.

00:43:53.079 --> 00:43:54.880
Right. Yeah. That's, that's, that's crucial.

00:43:55.099 --> 00:43:57.079
You're not getting hooked into the thing you're

00:43:57.079 --> 00:43:58.960
sharing. You're just putting it down. Like you're,

00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:00.440
it's like writing a to -do list. So you don't

00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:02.340
have to remember what's what you need to buy.

00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:05.380
It's just, I'm naming what's in my space and

00:44:05.380 --> 00:44:07.380
releasing it. That'll help drop you into being

00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:09.780
present as well. The point there is there's a

00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:13.360
conscious thing you can do to get present. Yeah.

00:44:13.460 --> 00:44:14.940
You're not going to do this on a first date with

00:44:14.940 --> 00:44:17.340
somebody, likely, unless you're coming out of

00:44:17.340 --> 00:44:19.199
a workshop where you had done this. Right. If

00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:22.179
you know that this is a shared technique, then

00:44:22.179 --> 00:44:24.940
great. Then it's not weird. We also talked about

00:44:24.940 --> 00:44:27.639
a willingness to be uncomfortable, a willingness

00:44:27.639 --> 00:44:31.179
to be in the moment. Let's just like dive into

00:44:31.179 --> 00:44:33.000
that a little bit. This is huge. So much of it

00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:35.960
is this. Yeah. It's really worthwhile to fundamentally.

00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:40.019
rewire your relationship to discomfort yeah i

00:44:40.019 --> 00:44:41.519
guarantee there are domains in life where you've

00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:45.239
already done this if you exercise with any intensity

00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:49.559
it's uncomfortable right but it's fine you get

00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:52.579
used to it and it's like discomfort isn't the

00:44:52.579 --> 00:44:55.420
same as pain but even like when i'm lifting weights

00:44:55.420 --> 00:44:57.260
if it's an intense workout there can be pain

00:44:57.260 --> 00:45:00.039
but pain isn't the same as suffering right right

00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:01.820
and discomfort doesn't have to be the same as

00:45:01.820 --> 00:45:06.039
suffering like any exertion of effort or leaning

00:45:06.039 --> 00:45:07.559
into the unfamiliar is going to have discomfort

00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:11.239
and that's fine. Growth and discomfort go together.

00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:12.860
You can't have growth and comfort simultaneously.

00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:15.960
You might have uncomfortable feelings yourself

00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:18.900
or the other person might, and then your discomfort

00:45:18.900 --> 00:45:22.920
is just being with them in that experience. You

00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:24.840
want to normalize that. Yeah. That comes back

00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:27.300
to that openness piece, right? Yeah. Just whatever

00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:30.460
is happening in this moment is okay. Not only

00:45:30.460 --> 00:45:32.420
is it okay, I'll take it a step further and say

00:45:32.420 --> 00:45:36.159
like the connection you're seeking, in large

00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:39.539
part is because through the experience of going

00:45:39.539 --> 00:45:43.039
deeper with somebody you're both willing to be

00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:45.699
uncomfortable together and that's the bond yeah

00:45:45.699 --> 00:45:49.079
if this was easy it wouldn't create the depth

00:45:49.079 --> 00:45:51.039
and the intimacy that it does there's something

00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:53.079
special about it the people in your life that

00:45:53.079 --> 00:45:56.500
you are willing to have these deeper conversations

00:45:56.500 --> 00:45:59.699
with are special to you because because of the

00:45:59.699 --> 00:46:02.099
discomfort not in spite of it that discomfort

00:46:02.099 --> 00:46:04.820
it's not something that's going wrong It's a

00:46:04.820 --> 00:46:06.860
sign that things are going right. Yeah. Talked

00:46:06.860 --> 00:46:09.719
about conditions, right? The conditions for a

00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:12.099
deeper conversation. And maybe it's worth summarizing

00:46:12.099 --> 00:46:19.119
safety, presence, openness, patience, and a willingness

00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:21.940
to be uncomfortable and a recognition that it

00:46:21.940 --> 00:46:23.559
probably will be uncomfortable, but that's okay.

00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:26.940
That's the magic. That's the secret sauce. And

00:46:26.940 --> 00:46:28.500
this doesn't have to be perfect. Like this can

00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:32.760
be. An expression I picked up somewhere, but

00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:34.579
it was like, just be willing to fumble fuck your

00:46:34.579 --> 00:46:38.659
way forward and trust that it's going to be okay.

00:46:38.679 --> 00:46:40.380
It can be awkward and it can be however it's

00:46:40.380 --> 00:46:43.099
going to be. And this is not about perfecting

00:46:43.099 --> 00:46:45.000
something. It's about being willing to be imperfect.

00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:47.280
I don't imagine that you'll ever get perfect

00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:49.900
when it comes to vulnerability and sharing things

00:46:49.900 --> 00:46:52.039
and going deep with a person. It's probably always

00:46:52.039 --> 00:46:54.079
going to be a practice. Well, and the moment

00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:56.300
it starts to feel too safe, it's no longer vulnerable.

00:46:56.500 --> 00:46:59.119
Yeah. Because some people are really comfortable

00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:02.719
sharing things. that are super personal, where

00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:06.179
you or I might watch them sharing that. And to

00:47:06.179 --> 00:47:08.000
us, it would be super vulnerable, but to them,

00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:10.679
maybe it's not. So this is also quite subjective.

00:47:11.019 --> 00:47:13.000
And what feels vulnerable to you might not feel

00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:15.219
vulnerable to someone else and vice versa. But

00:47:15.219 --> 00:47:16.639
what makes it vulnerable is if you're afraid.

00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:19.539
If there's no fear, it's not vulnerable. But

00:47:19.539 --> 00:47:21.340
then as you're getting comfortable with sharing

00:47:21.340 --> 00:47:23.519
those sorts of things, if it no longer feels

00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:26.179
awkward or uncomfortable, that just means you're

00:47:26.179 --> 00:47:28.780
getting better at having deeper conversations

00:47:28.780 --> 00:47:32.010
and you're... You've expanded the palette of

00:47:32.010 --> 00:47:34.829
experiences you can share with another person

00:47:34.829 --> 00:47:38.710
and have it feel natural. So that's not to say

00:47:38.710 --> 00:47:40.469
that as you get more comfortable sharing more

00:47:40.469 --> 00:47:43.289
personal things, you're not losing out on the

00:47:43.289 --> 00:47:46.809
depth of connection. It's just once you acclimate

00:47:46.809 --> 00:47:50.190
to a certain level of disclosure and transparency,

00:47:50.510 --> 00:47:55.409
then the goalposts move, which is fine. It means

00:47:55.409 --> 00:47:57.510
you now have a bigger playground you can play

00:47:57.510 --> 00:48:01.150
in. And then the next step is, okay, well, where's

00:48:01.150 --> 00:48:03.250
the edge? And can I push the edge a little further?

00:48:03.369 --> 00:48:05.530
Can I get a bit edgier? And that's what keeps

00:48:05.530 --> 00:48:09.090
it fun and exciting. One of the things that can

00:48:09.090 --> 00:48:11.210
suck the passion out of a romantic relationship

00:48:11.210 --> 00:48:15.010
over time is you get too safe, right? Things

00:48:15.010 --> 00:48:17.809
start to feel too normal with a person. But that's

00:48:17.809 --> 00:48:19.849
just because we stop trying to explore the edges.

00:48:20.409 --> 00:48:23.989
We carve out whatever the conversational, relational

00:48:23.989 --> 00:48:26.690
space is with a person, and then we just hit

00:48:26.690 --> 00:48:29.239
the cruise control. Yeah, we know where the safe

00:48:29.239 --> 00:48:31.400
parameters are. And we just stay in our lane.

00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:34.840
And you wonder why 10 years later, when you've

00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:36.800
been in cruise control on a long straight highway,

00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:39.880
the view starts to get boring. But there's an

00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:41.599
edge. There's always another edge. And if you

00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:43.599
push that edge a little bit and open up and are

00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:46.679
willing to be more vulnerable, notice how that

00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:49.440
affects your level of excitement in the relationship

00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.039
and attraction and passion. And all of these

00:48:52.039 --> 00:48:54.039
things can come back to life if you keep looking

00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:56.380
for the edge and pushing it a little further.

00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:59.139
We did a reflection the last time. Let's do another

00:48:59.139 --> 00:49:02.420
one here. Where in your life do you have people

00:49:02.420 --> 00:49:06.300
who you feel emotionally safe with? And how do

00:49:06.300 --> 00:49:08.659
they build that safe container for you? What

00:49:08.659 --> 00:49:11.900
are the ingredients? Maybe you can pinpoint that.

00:49:12.139 --> 00:49:14.059
Right. Who are the people you feel? Who are the

00:49:14.059 --> 00:49:16.400
people you feel safe with? And how do they make

00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:19.000
you feel that way? Maybe it's the same question,

00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:20.840
just phrased another way. But who are the people

00:49:20.840 --> 00:49:23.659
in your life with whom you feel the most like

00:49:23.659 --> 00:49:27.010
yourself? Right. Or where you feel the most freedom

00:49:27.010 --> 00:49:29.949
to be yourself or to express more of your inner

00:49:29.949 --> 00:49:31.650
world. Who are those people? Could be a best

00:49:31.650 --> 00:49:33.750
friend. It could be a romantic partner, a parent.

00:49:34.030 --> 00:49:36.250
Yeah. Yeah. Who are the people who just make

00:49:36.250 --> 00:49:39.389
you feel at ease? Where you're at ease. Yeah.

00:49:39.409 --> 00:49:42.710
And you know that whatever, whatever you're experiencing,

00:49:42.909 --> 00:49:45.869
it's safe to share with that person. And who

00:49:45.869 --> 00:49:48.170
are the people that you'd like to go deeper with?

00:49:48.489 --> 00:49:51.969
Right. Who do you have in your life? where there's

00:49:51.969 --> 00:49:53.929
a part of you that yearns for a deeper connection

00:49:53.929 --> 00:49:57.309
and maybe you've been too scared to initiate

00:49:57.309 --> 00:50:01.309
it. So we've talked about what the blockages

00:50:01.309 --> 00:50:04.030
are. We've talked about what we need to create

00:50:04.030 --> 00:50:07.929
that space. So now the question becomes, how

00:50:07.929 --> 00:50:10.489
do I steer this conversation into deeper territory

00:50:10.489 --> 00:50:14.510
without making it weird and without forcing it,

00:50:14.570 --> 00:50:17.530
right? Because it might work to come over and

00:50:17.530 --> 00:50:19.320
say like, do you think about death a lot? It

00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:24.260
might also come off as just like a really weird...

00:50:24.260 --> 00:50:26.440
There were two ways that could have gone for

00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:28.139
you, right? You could have been like, actually,

00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:30.539
I do. Or you could have been like, who the hell

00:50:30.539 --> 00:50:34.400
is this person? And how do I find the... Depth

00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:37.679
is a powerful thing, but you need a lot more

00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:40.119
than just a willingness to go deep and a real

00:50:40.119 --> 00:50:43.639
good question, right? Timing is important. Your

00:50:43.639 --> 00:50:46.619
tone, your tonality is going to be hugely important.

00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:51.059
Attunement. You're reading the room. You're gauging

00:50:51.059 --> 00:50:54.880
through subtle cues. Maybe that this feels like

00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:58.119
a suitable opening to try to make a bid to go

00:50:58.119 --> 00:51:01.219
deeper. Yeah, because if we're not reading the

00:51:01.219 --> 00:51:04.519
room properly, there's the possibility that we

00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:06.059
come off as just someone who's way too intense.

00:51:06.519 --> 00:51:10.619
Right. You don't just want to impose this on

00:51:10.619 --> 00:51:13.719
somebody, imposing depth or intimacy or vulnerability.

00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:16.940
You want to invite them in. Yeah. Whether you

00:51:16.940 --> 00:51:18.780
do it explicitly or whether you do it through

00:51:18.780 --> 00:51:20.320
a little bit and then you read the response,

00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:23.739
it's an invitation. And then if they meet you

00:51:23.739 --> 00:51:26.340
there, they've consented to actually go there

00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:28.219
with you. Right. So we're not just ambushing

00:51:28.219 --> 00:51:30.940
them with weird questions where we're sort of

00:51:30.940 --> 00:51:33.639
feeling things out. An interrogator will torture

00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:36.239
depth out of somebody. Right. Right? Yeah, yeah.

00:51:36.380 --> 00:51:37.659
And they'll look at them to share their deepest

00:51:37.659 --> 00:51:41.050
secrets and national secrets. that's depth, but

00:51:41.050 --> 00:51:43.610
it's not connection in the way that you're after

00:51:43.610 --> 00:51:45.690
here. Yeah. And that's really, I mean, when we're

00:51:45.690 --> 00:51:47.869
talking about depth and vulnerability, connection

00:51:47.869 --> 00:51:50.210
is the, is the inherent piece there. Yeah. Or

00:51:50.210 --> 00:51:53.530
even without torture, like a skilled police investigator

00:51:53.530 --> 00:51:57.030
can coax a confession out of somebody to a crime.

00:51:57.849 --> 00:52:00.030
They know how to break down your walls. And,

00:52:00.030 --> 00:52:01.449
but that's like, it's very much a manipulation

00:52:01.449 --> 00:52:03.769
and you're not going to feel, you may not feel

00:52:03.769 --> 00:52:05.590
the kind of intimacy we're talking about here.

00:52:05.650 --> 00:52:08.409
So it's don't do stuff to people. Yeah. Invite

00:52:08.409 --> 00:52:10.929
them in. Well, it's a great way to invite somebody

00:52:10.929 --> 00:52:13.489
in. Questions are great, but I would say more

00:52:13.489 --> 00:52:16.070
than questions is like a genuine sort of curiosity.

00:52:16.750 --> 00:52:19.289
Instead of trying to think of deep questions

00:52:19.289 --> 00:52:22.630
and come across as deep and curate a deep personality,

00:52:23.070 --> 00:52:26.309
just get genuinely curious, right? And get good

00:52:26.309 --> 00:52:28.989
at listening, right? So that being said, we can

00:52:28.989 --> 00:52:31.210
give you a few examples of questions that are

00:52:31.210 --> 00:52:33.309
better than, hey, how are you doing? How are

00:52:33.309 --> 00:52:34.670
you doing invites? Fine, thanks. How are you?

00:52:34.849 --> 00:52:37.389
And it's very rote and robotic and utterly meaningless.

00:52:37.670 --> 00:52:40.150
And it's more like a handshake than a conversation.

00:52:40.469 --> 00:52:43.469
It's a verbal handshake. My sister -in -law has

00:52:43.469 --> 00:52:45.769
one. She'll ask, what's green and growing in

00:52:45.769 --> 00:52:47.710
your world lately? Oh, that's good. I like that.

00:52:47.730 --> 00:52:49.369
So that was, it's cute, right? It's what's green

00:52:49.369 --> 00:52:52.030
and growing. Yeah. And it gave me pause when

00:52:52.030 --> 00:52:54.469
she first asked and prompted me to think like,

00:52:54.530 --> 00:52:57.570
what's something I'm trying to nurture and grow?

00:52:57.789 --> 00:53:00.530
Yeah. And I think at the time it was my coaching

00:53:00.530 --> 00:53:03.360
business. That's green and growing. And it led

00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:05.320
to a conversation about something personal to

00:53:05.320 --> 00:53:07.380
me as opposed to just, how's it going? Yeah.

00:53:07.500 --> 00:53:09.440
Right? I have a friend, Tiff, and she'll always

00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:11.420
ask, what's going on for you right now? Like

00:53:11.420 --> 00:53:14.960
what's, truly she wants to know. Yeah. What's

00:53:14.960 --> 00:53:17.519
in your world? What's in your space? How is Patrick

00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:20.219
doing? Like tell me. I can feel that genuine

00:53:20.219 --> 00:53:24.320
curiosity and affection. And it makes talking

00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:27.599
to her really easy. Right. And it makes speaking

00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:31.119
with her really delightful because you can just,

00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:33.820
I just sense that. It's the same as your green

00:53:33.820 --> 00:53:35.800
and growing. Yeah. And it's like the difference

00:53:35.800 --> 00:53:41.380
between how's it going versus how are you? Yeah.

00:53:41.980 --> 00:53:45.119
It's almost the same question in terms of the

00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:47.159
words, but it's a completely different question.

00:53:47.659 --> 00:53:50.039
You can also ask what's been feeling really alive

00:53:50.039 --> 00:53:53.960
for you lately or what's something that you're

00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:57.119
looking forward to or what's been weighing heavily

00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:00.780
on you or what's something you've been chewing

00:54:00.780 --> 00:54:04.000
on lately. It's just questions that probe a little

00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:08.000
deeper and are inviting someone to share something

00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:11.840
meaningful. And it also, by asking even a slightly

00:54:11.840 --> 00:54:14.500
better question, you're not in this autopilot

00:54:14.500 --> 00:54:16.159
of, hey, how's it going? Fine, thanks. How are

00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:18.219
you? Also fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or you could

00:54:18.219 --> 00:54:20.820
do that utterly mindlessly. You're not even thinking

00:54:20.820 --> 00:54:23.219
about the words because it's so automatic. Asking

00:54:23.219 --> 00:54:26.059
a slightly different question gets you present

00:54:26.059 --> 00:54:28.639
to the question you're asking. Yeah. And now

00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:32.070
you're actually listening to the answer. You're

00:54:32.070 --> 00:54:35.469
not just doing a well -choreographed dance. You're

00:54:35.469 --> 00:54:37.110
actually trying to connect to a person. Yeah,

00:54:37.130 --> 00:54:39.969
you're making space for that authenticity, that

00:54:39.969 --> 00:54:42.389
realness. Yeah. And then, so that's if you're,

00:54:42.449 --> 00:54:44.869
these are opening questions, but if you're in

00:54:44.869 --> 00:54:47.869
a conversation with somebody and you're listening

00:54:47.869 --> 00:54:51.309
well, they'll give you little clues. Like someone

00:54:51.309 --> 00:54:52.909
says, hey, work's been really intense lately.

00:54:53.610 --> 00:54:55.570
You can brush past that and go, yeah, me too,

00:54:55.670 --> 00:54:58.269
man. Busy is the new normal. There you go. That's

00:54:58.269 --> 00:54:59.710
your surface level. That's your surface level.

00:54:59.750 --> 00:55:01.730
Or you can say, oh, intense. What kind of intense?

00:55:01.969 --> 00:55:06.650
Like too much? Like too stressful? Yeah. Say

00:55:06.650 --> 00:55:09.809
more about intense. And you've already gone a

00:55:09.809 --> 00:55:12.510
level deeper just by cuing on something they

00:55:12.510 --> 00:55:17.769
expressed, a word, a phrase that points to an

00:55:17.769 --> 00:55:19.969
emotional experience. Right. Intense. Oh, there's

00:55:19.969 --> 00:55:22.539
some charge there. I'm curious, like say more

00:55:22.539 --> 00:55:24.340
about intents and now you're inviting them to

00:55:24.340 --> 00:55:26.280
go a little deeper. I love that one. Say more

00:55:26.280 --> 00:55:30.000
about, that's just like such a great way to,

00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:32.900
to follow whatever it is that the person is saying,

00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:34.300
whatever's important to them, whatever's live

00:55:34.300 --> 00:55:37.320
for them in that moment and to just cut a layer

00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:39.599
deeper. What I love about that is that it's,

00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:42.179
it's the most open -ended invitation for them

00:55:42.179 --> 00:55:44.699
to say more. It's, if I ask a specific question,

00:55:44.820 --> 00:55:46.880
it points you in a particular direction. But

00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:48.780
if I say, Hey, just tell me more about that.

00:55:48.780 --> 00:55:51.559
Say more about that. Yeah. Then. I'm giving you

00:55:51.559 --> 00:55:55.099
an opportunity to share whatever more is for

00:55:55.099 --> 00:55:57.300
you. Yeah. I'm not guiding it. I'm just telling

00:55:57.300 --> 00:55:59.820
you that I'm paying attention. I'm curious. Yeah.

00:55:59.860 --> 00:56:01.300
So I'm not trying to pull you in. I'm trying

00:56:01.300 --> 00:56:03.320
to. Trying to follow you. Follow you. And then

00:56:03.320 --> 00:56:05.599
you want to read their response. Like in the

00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:07.619
example of what works been intense. Oh, what

00:56:07.619 --> 00:56:10.300
kind of intense? They'll go one of a few different

00:56:10.300 --> 00:56:13.739
ways. They might elaborate and start to share

00:56:13.739 --> 00:56:15.199
more, which is great. You're a level deeper.

00:56:15.380 --> 00:56:18.300
Yep. Or they might brush it off. Oh, you know,

00:56:18.340 --> 00:56:21.849
the usual. Okay. So you made a bid for them to

00:56:21.849 --> 00:56:23.809
share a little more and they declined the offer.

00:56:23.929 --> 00:56:25.949
That's fine too. It could be that that's not

00:56:25.949 --> 00:56:27.710
actually the trailhead you thought it might be.

00:56:27.789 --> 00:56:30.730
Yep. Or it could be they're not in the mood to

00:56:30.730 --> 00:56:34.030
go deeper. It doesn't matter. Yeah. The key here

00:56:34.030 --> 00:56:37.110
is you offered an invitation and then they'll

00:56:37.110 --> 00:56:39.690
take it or they won't. And it's fine. Yeah. It's

00:56:39.690 --> 00:56:41.650
like you said, they're your dance partner. You're

00:56:41.650 --> 00:56:43.690
not trying to pull something out of them. Right.

00:56:43.750 --> 00:56:49.019
Yeah. Yeah. Biggest one. Go first. Model. what

00:56:49.019 --> 00:56:51.719
you want in the conversation, right? Yeah. That's

00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:53.179
one that we can dig in on a little bit more.

00:56:53.239 --> 00:56:55.500
For sure. Yeah. If you want to make someone feel

00:56:55.500 --> 00:56:58.019
safe, if you're the first person, you've modeled

00:56:58.019 --> 00:57:00.400
that, right? This, I am someone who wants this.

00:57:00.460 --> 00:57:02.699
I'm someone who you can do this with. Be careful

00:57:02.699 --> 00:57:05.239
not to just dump on them. You don't want to make

00:57:05.239 --> 00:57:08.619
this like a 20 minute trauma dump. You're modeling

00:57:08.619 --> 00:57:11.179
honesty. Again, it's not a performance. You're

00:57:11.179 --> 00:57:13.079
actually just being real with them. You're opening

00:57:13.079 --> 00:57:14.900
up and being vulnerable. And that does several

00:57:14.900 --> 00:57:17.539
things. First, you're taking the risk first.

00:57:18.110 --> 00:57:20.989
rather than asking them to. Because if you just

00:57:20.989 --> 00:57:22.809
ask somebody a deeper, more probing question,

00:57:23.130 --> 00:57:26.150
you're asking them to be vulnerable. You haven't

00:57:26.150 --> 00:57:28.909
gone first, right? Whereas if you go first by

00:57:28.909 --> 00:57:30.389
sharing something a little bit vulnerable, like

00:57:30.389 --> 00:57:32.210
someone says, hey, how have you been? Or how's

00:57:32.210 --> 00:57:34.570
your week? Instead of saying, oh, the usual,

00:57:34.789 --> 00:57:36.269
you could say, oh, you know what? I've actually

00:57:36.269 --> 00:57:38.309
been really emotionally drained this week. Or

00:57:38.309 --> 00:57:40.550
I've been processing something that isn't quite

00:57:40.550 --> 00:57:42.409
sitting right with me. And you're giving them

00:57:42.409 --> 00:57:46.730
a little window into your world. It tells them,

00:57:47.099 --> 00:57:48.579
This is the kind of conversation I'd like to

00:57:48.579 --> 00:57:51.679
have. And I'm willing to, by me being vulnerable

00:57:51.679 --> 00:57:55.420
and going first, I'm demonstrating that I'm safe

00:57:55.420 --> 00:57:57.539
for you to be vulnerable with. My brother is,

00:57:57.559 --> 00:58:00.039
when we were younger, would always watch me do

00:58:00.039 --> 00:58:01.880
stupid things first before he would do them,

00:58:01.900 --> 00:58:04.260
right? So I'm going to jump into the water. Okay,

00:58:04.280 --> 00:58:06.519
yeah, you go first. And if you survive, then

00:58:06.519 --> 00:58:08.920
I'll do it too. So it's the same sort of thing.

00:58:08.980 --> 00:58:12.300
We're just modeling that. A quick side note on

00:58:12.300 --> 00:58:16.289
this one. I'm particularly proud of this. So

00:58:16.289 --> 00:58:19.389
years ago, I'd never had Vegemite. And I don't

00:58:19.389 --> 00:58:20.730
know, for people in the audience who've experienced

00:58:20.730 --> 00:58:26.269
Vegemite, it's this dark brown, dense vegetable

00:58:26.269 --> 00:58:29.010
paste that they're big on in Australia. It tastes

00:58:29.010 --> 00:58:32.170
kind of like if you took a bouillon cube and

00:58:32.170 --> 00:58:34.550
made a paste out of it. But with all the intensity

00:58:34.550 --> 00:58:37.309
of it, like it's so salty and so intense. And

00:58:37.309 --> 00:58:39.409
like I learned years later, the proper way to

00:58:39.409 --> 00:58:42.380
eat this is you... With a lot of butter and then

00:58:42.380 --> 00:58:44.820
a really thin layer of Vegemite. So it just,

00:58:44.840 --> 00:58:46.420
you get a bit of that flavor. A little tiny bit.

00:58:46.480 --> 00:58:50.239
Right. Yeah. So I was curious, bought a little

00:58:50.239 --> 00:58:53.079
jar of it at the supermarket and tasted it like

00:58:53.079 --> 00:58:55.639
with a spoon. Oh no. And it was awful. Yeah.

00:58:57.159 --> 00:58:59.639
My sister comes home a little bit later. I'm

00:58:59.639 --> 00:59:01.199
like, you got to try this. It's so good. And

00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:04.079
now she knows me and she's like, I don't trust

00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:07.360
you. You first. So I took a spoonful of it, put

00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:09.880
it in my mouth and just faked how yummy it was.

00:59:11.079 --> 00:59:13.940
This was me going first. It was totally a trap.

00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:17.440
But it was worth it just to watch her do it next.

00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:22.599
I played a show with my band in Austria and one

00:59:22.599 --> 00:59:26.019
of the fellas loved, loved Vegemite. And so we

00:59:26.019 --> 00:59:28.179
went back to his place after the show and he's

00:59:28.179 --> 00:59:30.079
like, you got to try it. It's the best. And same

00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:32.519
thing. And I just laid it on. I'll never eat

00:59:32.519 --> 00:59:34.420
Vegemite again. Right. Well, this wasn't even

00:59:34.420 --> 00:59:36.619
with bread. It was like a teaspoon full of Vegemite

00:59:36.619 --> 00:59:39.480
directly in the mouth. And I would do it again.

00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:42.619
Just to see the look on her face. Yeah, it was

00:59:42.619 --> 00:59:45.599
so worth it. But back to going first. Back to

00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:48.659
going first. Not in the sadistic, manipulative

00:59:48.659 --> 00:59:51.500
way that I just described, but by being vulnerable

00:59:51.500 --> 00:59:53.739
first, people will follow you and you're setting

00:59:53.739 --> 00:59:56.659
the tone. Declaring is maybe too strong a word,

00:59:56.699 --> 00:59:58.179
but you're setting the stage for, hey, this is

00:59:58.179 --> 00:59:59.659
the kind of conversation that I would like this

00:59:59.659 --> 01:00:01.460
to be. This is the kind of relationship I would

01:00:01.460 --> 01:00:03.860
like us to have. Yeah. So going first is the

01:00:03.860 --> 01:00:06.960
best way that I know of. Yeah. Oftentimes people

01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:09.719
are going to follow where you lead. Definitely.

01:00:09.780 --> 01:00:12.199
And that's a good insight, right? If you look

01:00:12.199 --> 01:00:14.739
at the quality of the relationships, interactions

01:00:14.739 --> 01:00:16.840
that you have in your life, you're getting back

01:00:16.840 --> 01:00:19.320
what you're putting out there. Yeah. So if you

01:00:19.320 --> 01:00:21.840
want more depth and closeness and vulnerability

01:00:21.840 --> 01:00:24.320
and connection, be more of those things. And

01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:26.599
then magically, the same people around you will

01:00:26.599 --> 01:00:29.019
likely be more that way as well. You don't need

01:00:29.019 --> 01:00:31.440
to replace your friends. No. You just need to

01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:34.260
model the kind of interaction you want to have

01:00:34.260 --> 01:00:36.340
with them. Yeah, I think that's very well put.

01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:39.659
In terms of... Other ways that we can open things

01:00:39.659 --> 01:00:42.780
up, there's a technique that we would call widen

01:00:42.780 --> 01:00:45.360
and then drop. So you're going to widen things

01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:47.699
out with something meaningful. And then you're

01:00:47.699 --> 01:00:49.619
going to drop a deeper question inside of that.

01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:52.820
And then that creates space for the person that

01:00:52.820 --> 01:00:56.000
you're with to answer that question. So example

01:00:56.000 --> 01:00:58.300
would be something like, you've been with your

01:00:58.300 --> 01:01:00.380
partner for a while now, right? And then the

01:01:00.380 --> 01:01:02.699
answer is yes. So now you've widened the conversation,

01:01:02.960 --> 01:01:05.199
right? We're talking about the partner. And then

01:01:05.199 --> 01:01:07.420
we drop in our question. What's something that

01:01:07.420 --> 01:01:09.480
you've learned about yourself through that relationship?

01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:12.219
You want to be attuned, obviously, to how deep

01:01:12.219 --> 01:01:14.679
you can drop in a particular conversation with

01:01:14.679 --> 01:01:16.900
a particular person. Sure. But I think it's great.

01:01:17.119 --> 01:01:20.059
You're setting the stage with the opening statement

01:01:20.059 --> 01:01:21.760
or question, and then you're dropping in with

01:01:21.760 --> 01:01:24.119
a deeper question. Like, hey, I noticed you've

01:01:24.119 --> 01:01:27.360
moved around a lot in the last few years. The

01:01:27.360 --> 01:01:28.840
more shallow question might be like, what's that

01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:31.639
been like? Or you can probe a little deeper.

01:01:31.699 --> 01:01:33.539
Like, did any of those places ever really feel

01:01:33.539 --> 01:01:36.809
like home? And that leads to like, what is it

01:01:36.809 --> 01:01:38.590
for a place to feel like home? Or you're asking

01:01:38.590 --> 01:01:40.909
about something that's a little more intimate.

01:01:41.730 --> 01:01:44.329
Or you can share in the same way. Like, hey,

01:01:44.349 --> 01:01:47.389
I've changed jobs three times in the last five

01:01:47.389 --> 01:01:51.090
years and I found it really unsettling. Having

01:01:51.090 --> 01:01:54.190
to find myself again in each of these new settings

01:01:54.190 --> 01:01:56.690
and cultures has been really kind of an exercise

01:01:56.690 --> 01:02:00.269
in searching for myself, for example. And then

01:02:00.269 --> 01:02:02.670
now you're sharing something that's more personal.

01:02:03.440 --> 01:02:05.920
We talked a lot about the dance. We talked a

01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:07.739
lot about how this is not a science. And we talked

01:02:07.739 --> 01:02:10.179
about paying attention to energy and body language

01:02:10.179 --> 01:02:13.280
and tone of voice. It's not just going to be

01:02:13.280 --> 01:02:15.500
people's words that's going to lead you in the

01:02:15.500 --> 01:02:18.400
direction of having a deeper engagement, having

01:02:18.400 --> 01:02:22.480
a more vulnerable conversation. So pay attention

01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:26.019
to those sorts of things too. Yeah, you can notice

01:02:26.019 --> 01:02:28.840
shifts in energy. Someone may be sharing something

01:02:28.840 --> 01:02:32.119
and their tone might change. They may look down

01:02:32.119 --> 01:02:34.190
and... their tone drops or something, and you

01:02:34.190 --> 01:02:36.449
can say, what just happened there? So being observant

01:02:36.449 --> 01:02:40.909
in real time, because often when somebody's sharing

01:02:40.909 --> 01:02:43.730
a story or an experience, we kind of follow them

01:02:43.730 --> 01:02:46.070
in our imagination to whatever events they're

01:02:46.070 --> 01:02:48.969
recalling, and that's useful. But you can also,

01:02:49.050 --> 01:02:51.369
you want to toggle back and forth between that

01:02:51.369 --> 01:02:53.130
and noticing what's unfolding right in front

01:02:53.130 --> 01:02:55.650
of you. If someone's energy shifts or their emotional

01:02:55.650 --> 01:02:58.650
state shifts, you can notice it and say, hey,

01:02:58.670 --> 01:03:01.730
like, you got quiet there. Do you mind if I ask,

01:03:01.769 --> 01:03:04.380
like, what was going on for you in that moment?

01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:06.320
Paying attention to your own body language can

01:03:06.320 --> 01:03:08.860
help in that way too. I'm noticing about myself

01:03:08.860 --> 01:03:11.420
right now while we're recording this podcast,

01:03:11.539 --> 01:03:14.079
I had a moment where my energy level dropped

01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:16.960
and I glanced at the clock and then it's, oh,

01:03:17.059 --> 01:03:20.760
I'm feeling tired and I want to be engaged with

01:03:20.760 --> 01:03:23.119
this. So I'm just going to call that out and

01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:25.920
mention it and then we can get back to it. But

01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:28.639
you might notice something about yourself that

01:03:28.639 --> 01:03:30.960
you want to call out or call into the space as

01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:34.440
well that might help. to just generate that space

01:03:34.440 --> 01:03:37.719
again. Yeah, for sure. One more thing to keep

01:03:37.719 --> 01:03:41.800
in mind is building trust with a person is probably

01:03:41.800 --> 01:03:44.260
going to be a slow build, right? Yeah. There

01:03:44.260 --> 01:03:47.260
are people who I know in my life I can have deep

01:03:47.260 --> 01:03:50.659
conversations with. That wasn't always the case.

01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:53.139
There's always a getting to know you phase. With

01:03:53.139 --> 01:03:54.920
some people, it might be accelerated. With some

01:03:54.920 --> 01:03:57.059
people, it might be slower. Even the people that

01:03:57.059 --> 01:03:58.619
you are comfortable having deeper conversations

01:03:58.619 --> 01:04:00.320
with, not every conversation is going to be that

01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:04.000
way. No. But... Once you've gone to a certain

01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:07.099
level of depth with a person, you've now established

01:04:07.099 --> 01:04:10.500
that as a safe place that you can go. You can

01:04:10.500 --> 01:04:12.559
tap back into that with that person whenever

01:04:12.559 --> 01:04:17.099
you want to. So it's like having had a particular

01:04:17.099 --> 01:04:20.619
level of vulnerability or connection with somebody

01:04:20.619 --> 01:04:23.900
once, it's like a category shift. Now this is

01:04:23.900 --> 01:04:27.300
a person that I can do that with. Yeah. So what

01:04:27.300 --> 01:04:28.900
comes to mind for me is my best friend from high

01:04:28.900 --> 01:04:31.639
school. Christopher and another friend of ours,

01:04:31.719 --> 01:04:34.539
Peter, right? The three of us, we went through

01:04:34.539 --> 01:04:37.059
some stuff together. We had that. But when I

01:04:37.059 --> 01:04:40.420
first met them, it was just like video games

01:04:40.420 --> 01:04:43.719
and stupid voices and dumb jokes. Yeah, boy stuff.

01:04:43.820 --> 01:04:47.980
Boy stuff. And as we got to grow together and

01:04:47.980 --> 01:04:51.059
to know one another, you know, now it's still

01:04:51.059 --> 01:04:55.360
video games and silly voices and dumb crap. But

01:04:55.360 --> 01:04:58.579
if I need to speak to one of them instantly,

01:04:59.500 --> 01:05:01.579
they're there with me. Right. Right. And we're

01:05:01.579 --> 01:05:04.880
not doing dumb accents and we're not like, it's,

01:05:04.880 --> 01:05:07.199
they are there and they, I can lean on them and

01:05:07.199 --> 01:05:10.599
I can, and I know that no matter what I say,

01:05:10.739 --> 01:05:13.860
they're, they're going to, to bear witness to,

01:05:13.900 --> 01:05:16.980
to my authenticity. It's a gear you can shift

01:05:16.980 --> 01:05:18.820
into. Like having been there once, you can go

01:05:18.820 --> 01:05:20.860
there again. So I'll say, so here's the other

01:05:20.860 --> 01:05:22.719
thing that I know about this. Those are not the

01:05:22.719 --> 01:05:24.659
only people that I can do that with. Exactly.

01:05:25.019 --> 01:05:26.699
You're someone I can do that with. Right. Right.

01:05:26.860 --> 01:05:29.900
And. I've known you way less time than I've known

01:05:29.900 --> 01:05:32.679
them. So this is something that you can repeat.

01:05:32.900 --> 01:05:35.400
This is something that you can build. Yeah, you

01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:37.699
can scale this. You can replicate it. And it

01:05:37.699 --> 01:05:40.099
doesn't have to take a long time. No. At all.

01:05:40.179 --> 01:05:42.579
I'll give the counterexample. You and I have

01:05:42.579 --> 01:05:45.900
both been on some intense weekend -long personal

01:05:45.900 --> 01:05:50.039
development experiences, workshops of various

01:05:50.039 --> 01:05:52.980
types. And so in that setting, you meet a group

01:05:52.980 --> 01:05:54.960
of people who might be strangers at the beginning

01:05:54.960 --> 01:05:58.559
of the weekend, but... Two days later, in the

01:05:58.559 --> 01:06:00.800
group space that gets created there, like you've

01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:02.920
bared your soul, you've opened up, people have

01:06:02.920 --> 01:06:05.639
cried and supported each other in all sorts of

01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:09.860
ways. So that can happen right away. And then

01:06:09.860 --> 01:06:13.760
from that point on, anytime you run into or spend

01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:15.119
time with the people that you've shared that

01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:17.880
experience with. You can drop into that level

01:06:17.880 --> 01:06:20.000
of depth and it's almost expected. That's kind

01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:22.719
of the precedent you set. It sets the tone. Well,

01:06:22.840 --> 01:06:24.599
cause when we're running the, when we're facilitating

01:06:24.599 --> 01:06:27.260
those weekends, we have a very short period of

01:06:27.260 --> 01:06:29.820
time. We have two to, you know, two and a half

01:06:29.820 --> 01:06:34.559
days to really create value for, for these people.

01:06:34.619 --> 01:06:36.300
For a bunch of, yeah. Like the men's work, a

01:06:36.300 --> 01:06:38.360
bunch of men come in super guarded on a Friday

01:06:38.360 --> 01:06:40.840
night, not knowing what they got into. Yep. And

01:06:40.840 --> 01:06:44.090
by Saturday night, they've. often shared things

01:06:44.090 --> 01:06:45.789
I've never shared with anybody. And there've

01:06:45.789 --> 01:06:47.829
been tears and there've been, there's been anger

01:06:47.829 --> 01:06:51.510
and sadness and joy and vulnerability and really

01:06:51.510 --> 01:06:55.730
deep emotional transformation. Yeah. Fast. So

01:06:55.730 --> 01:06:57.409
this stuff we're sharing is not theoretical,

01:06:57.690 --> 01:07:00.070
right? The safety that go first, the vulnerability,

01:07:00.269 --> 01:07:04.090
the asking deeper questions, the declaring, I'd

01:07:04.090 --> 01:07:05.929
like to have a deeper kind of conversation with

01:07:05.929 --> 01:07:08.889
you, right? Naming what's normal. Normally we

01:07:08.889 --> 01:07:10.829
keep it superficial. I want this to be deeper.

01:07:10.949 --> 01:07:14.139
Here's what that means. You can accelerate the

01:07:14.139 --> 01:07:16.699
process consciously by creating the right conditions

01:07:16.699 --> 01:07:19.820
and being comfortable taking the lead and being

01:07:19.820 --> 01:07:22.320
comfortable with your own vulnerability and equally

01:07:22.320 --> 01:07:25.900
being comfortable holding space for someone else

01:07:25.900 --> 01:07:28.000
in whatever their experience is. Yeah. And like

01:07:28.000 --> 01:07:29.480
you said, when we run into those people again,

01:07:29.699 --> 01:07:33.579
we can drop into that fairly instantly. And there's

01:07:33.579 --> 01:07:35.619
just that rapport and there's that space. And

01:07:35.619 --> 01:07:38.119
then again, you can have, you joke around and

01:07:38.119 --> 01:07:41.260
do that too. It's just, it's so nice. It's beautiful

01:07:41.260 --> 01:07:43.739
when you have. A relationship with someone and

01:07:43.739 --> 01:07:46.380
you just have all of those levels that you can

01:07:46.380 --> 01:07:49.739
tap into whenever, you know? Totally. Yeah. And

01:07:49.739 --> 01:07:52.760
it's with a lot of them, it's almost weird if

01:07:52.760 --> 01:07:55.099
you keep it too superficial because it's like,

01:07:55.119 --> 01:07:56.639
wait a minute. You're someone I know I can go

01:07:56.639 --> 01:07:59.260
deep with. Yeah. And you can have a barbecue

01:07:59.260 --> 01:08:02.099
and keep it shallow, but you also, even in that

01:08:02.099 --> 01:08:04.980
setting, depth doesn't have to mean tears or

01:08:04.980 --> 01:08:07.659
trauma. It can just mean it's just a little more

01:08:07.659 --> 01:08:09.320
real. Yeah, what's real for you? What's going

01:08:09.320 --> 01:08:11.800
on in your world? What's going on in your life,

01:08:11.900 --> 01:08:14.039
right? And it's not just, ah, well, you know,

01:08:14.039 --> 01:08:16.840
work's okay. Like, I'm getting something genuine

01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:19.199
from you. I'm getting something authentic from

01:08:19.199 --> 01:08:20.960
you. Like, ah, you know what? My father's not

01:08:20.960 --> 01:08:23.619
doing well right now, and we've been in the hospital,

01:08:23.659 --> 01:08:25.420
and that's just really on my mind. But like,

01:08:25.520 --> 01:08:27.979
you know, things are okay otherwise. Like, that

01:08:27.979 --> 01:08:32.260
level of engagement. I'm reminded of a weekend.

01:08:33.590 --> 01:08:38.750
Last spring, about a year ago, I was at my girlfriend's

01:08:38.750 --> 01:08:41.750
cottage and we had another couple joining us,

01:08:41.850 --> 01:08:44.710
a couple of friends of ours. And this couple,

01:08:44.850 --> 01:08:46.470
one of the things that's so great about them

01:08:46.470 --> 01:08:50.149
is they're very self -aware and they're very

01:08:50.149 --> 01:08:54.130
open about just sharing about the real dynamics

01:08:54.130 --> 01:08:56.670
of their relationship. And they would kind of

01:08:56.670 --> 01:08:58.800
go first and they would talk about. I don't remember

01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:00.119
the specific examples, but it'd be like, oh,

01:09:00.140 --> 01:09:01.479
you know, one of the things I do when we're arguing

01:09:01.479 --> 01:09:03.439
is I tend to get very this way or that way. And

01:09:03.439 --> 01:09:05.119
then, and then she responds this way. And like,

01:09:05.140 --> 01:09:07.140
they're just, there's just a lot of disclosure

01:09:07.140 --> 01:09:10.880
from them. And that gave us permission to share

01:09:10.880 --> 01:09:13.359
about like what's really going on in our relationship.

01:09:13.500 --> 01:09:15.539
And it was, it normalized the whole thing. Right.

01:09:15.619 --> 01:09:17.399
And it was refreshing and nourishing because

01:09:17.399 --> 01:09:21.180
it's, there's just so much more substance to

01:09:21.180 --> 01:09:24.260
it than, than just talking superficially, you

01:09:24.260 --> 01:09:25.979
know, and then, and then 20 minutes later in

01:09:25.979 --> 01:09:29.699
the conversation. we were laughing our faces

01:09:29.699 --> 01:09:33.859
off at whether or not two different words rhymed,

01:09:33.880 --> 01:09:35.779
and half of us thought that they rhymed, and

01:09:35.779 --> 01:09:37.420
the other half thought that it was preposterous

01:09:37.420 --> 01:09:39.060
to say that this rhymes with that. I forget what

01:09:39.060 --> 01:09:41.920
the words were. So goofy stuff and then deep

01:09:41.920 --> 01:09:43.739
stuff, but having those places you can go to

01:09:43.739 --> 01:09:46.560
with certain people is really nice. Yeah. So

01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:48.920
a couple of just go -to questions to keep on

01:09:48.920 --> 01:09:53.720
hand if you need some openings or to just drop

01:09:53.720 --> 01:09:55.960
in. What's something that's been quietly shaping

01:09:55.960 --> 01:09:58.899
you lately? I like that. Yeah. I liked yours.

01:09:58.979 --> 01:10:00.979
What was it? What's green and growing? Yeah,

01:10:01.060 --> 01:10:03.359
that's my sister -in -law. I gave me that one.

01:10:03.500 --> 01:10:05.680
Yeah. When have you felt most like yourself lately?

01:10:06.119 --> 01:10:08.380
That's a good one. Yeah. What are you carrying

01:10:08.380 --> 01:10:10.119
right now? I think you said this one, right?

01:10:10.119 --> 01:10:11.760
What are you carrying right now that's really

01:10:11.760 --> 01:10:13.979
weighing on you that people might not know about?

01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:17.880
Has anything surprised you about yourself? Oh,

01:10:17.880 --> 01:10:19.460
that's a good one. I like it. Right? That's a

01:10:19.460 --> 01:10:21.579
good one because you're inviting someone to reflect

01:10:21.579 --> 01:10:23.920
on what they've learned about themselves. Or

01:10:23.920 --> 01:10:25.739
what's something that you're working through

01:10:25.739 --> 01:10:29.119
that you haven't talked much about? You may not

01:10:29.119 --> 01:10:31.680
open with that, but it's the kind of question

01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:33.920
that can be interesting. Yeah. And you don't

01:10:33.920 --> 01:10:35.859
have to use these. You don't have to use all

01:10:35.859 --> 01:10:37.199
of them. You don't have to use any of them. You

01:10:37.199 --> 01:10:39.180
might find one that works for you. You could

01:10:39.180 --> 01:10:42.020
also do a Google search for deeper questions

01:10:42.020 --> 01:10:44.300
to start conversations with. There are a few,

01:10:44.399 --> 01:10:47.239
they're like card games out there where it's

01:10:47.239 --> 01:10:49.319
a deck of cards. I have one of those. Yeah. Yeah.

01:10:49.439 --> 01:10:51.399
I have a deck of cards. It's just like. It's

01:10:51.399 --> 01:10:53.560
52 different questions that you can ask to just

01:10:53.560 --> 01:10:56.119
like start. To take a conversation a little deeper.

01:10:56.199 --> 01:10:58.479
Yeah, those are cool. So you don't have to think

01:10:58.479 --> 01:10:59.939
these up. Other people have done the thinking

01:10:59.939 --> 01:11:03.439
for you. I had a dinner party with some friends

01:11:03.439 --> 01:11:07.619
in January and there were 11 or 12 of us. Right.

01:11:07.699 --> 01:11:10.340
And we wanted to have a deeper kind of conversation

01:11:10.340 --> 01:11:14.180
among this group of friends. And so I found,

01:11:14.300 --> 01:11:17.859
I don't know, say 40 of these questions and printed

01:11:17.859 --> 01:11:20.520
them out on little cards. And went to the restaurant

01:11:20.520 --> 01:11:24.060
early and put two of them under, like at each

01:11:24.060 --> 01:11:27.159
place setting. And then, you know, I guess it

01:11:27.159 --> 01:11:28.979
was probably between the appetizer and the main

01:11:28.979 --> 01:11:30.979
course. It was, hey, one of the things we wanted

01:11:30.979 --> 01:11:33.359
to do here was encourage a deeper level of intimacy

01:11:33.359 --> 01:11:36.640
and connection in this conversation. So take

01:11:36.640 --> 01:11:38.420
a look under your plate. You'll find two questions.

01:11:39.880 --> 01:11:42.939
Pick your favorite one and then read it out loud

01:11:42.939 --> 01:11:45.619
and then answer it. And I'll go first. So I went

01:11:45.619 --> 01:11:48.380
first. and modeled it and we went around taking

01:11:48.380 --> 01:11:50.699
turns and it made for a really nice conversation

01:11:50.699 --> 01:11:52.960
that's cool i i think that that's a great sort

01:11:52.960 --> 01:11:54.739
of reminder too that like this stuff doesn't

01:11:54.739 --> 01:11:56.920
have to be heavy right right it doesn't have

01:11:56.920 --> 01:12:00.159
to be doom and gloom and sadness and tears it

01:12:00.159 --> 01:12:03.960
can go that way but vulnerable and deep conversations

01:12:03.960 --> 01:12:06.800
are all it's it's also just like getting to know

01:12:06.800 --> 01:12:10.500
somebody on that that real level so yeah there's

01:12:10.500 --> 01:12:13.520
another access point perhaps a way in we talked

01:12:13.520 --> 01:12:16.069
a lot about asking someone else questions which

01:12:16.069 --> 01:12:18.010
is it kind of puts the burden on them to be vulnerable.

01:12:18.409 --> 01:12:20.850
You can also share something with someone that

01:12:20.850 --> 01:12:22.710
maybe you haven't shared with them before. So

01:12:22.710 --> 01:12:24.409
that dinner party we were just talking about,

01:12:24.449 --> 01:12:27.149
one of the cards that I had was pick someone

01:12:27.149 --> 01:12:31.069
else at the table and share something that you

01:12:31.069 --> 01:12:32.810
admire about them that you haven't told them

01:12:32.810 --> 01:12:36.590
before. And it's such a simple thing because

01:12:36.590 --> 01:12:38.369
I've got plenty of things that I admire about

01:12:38.369 --> 01:12:40.770
the people in my life that I just for whatever

01:12:40.770 --> 01:12:43.489
reason haven't shared. And so I took the opportunity

01:12:43.489 --> 01:12:45.069
and shared something with a friend of mine about

01:12:45.069 --> 01:12:47.069
something I admire that I didn't tell him about.

01:12:47.130 --> 01:12:49.229
And, you know, it instantly creates a deeper

01:12:49.229 --> 01:12:52.229
connection with that person. So look for where

01:12:52.229 --> 01:12:55.869
have you been stingy with compliments or acknowledgements

01:12:55.869 --> 01:12:58.449
or expressions of love and admiration for the

01:12:58.449 --> 01:13:02.149
people in your life. And that's an easy one is

01:13:02.149 --> 01:13:06.430
just share something meaningful that you appreciate

01:13:06.430 --> 01:13:08.590
or admire in somebody or you're proud of them

01:13:08.590 --> 01:13:11.250
for. One of the greatest gifts that you can give

01:13:11.250 --> 01:13:13.109
to a person in your life is just telling them

01:13:13.109 --> 01:13:16.069
what they've done that you're proud of. And I've

01:13:16.069 --> 01:13:19.750
really taken that to heart. I really try to tell

01:13:19.750 --> 01:13:22.210
people when I'm proud of them. If you don't say

01:13:22.210 --> 01:13:25.529
it, people don't know. They don't know what you're

01:13:25.529 --> 01:13:28.010
not saying, right? Yeah. That's an easy one.

01:13:28.189 --> 01:13:31.170
Very easy. Yeah. And not a whole lot to be fearful

01:13:31.170 --> 01:13:33.670
about there, right? Yeah. That's another one.

01:13:33.689 --> 01:13:35.670
It's low risk, right? This doesn't always have

01:13:35.670 --> 01:13:37.689
to be vulnerable and risky in that sense. It's

01:13:37.689 --> 01:13:40.989
just... It can be entirely pleasant, but it takes

01:13:40.989 --> 01:13:46.409
something to a deeper level. Yeah. So what I

01:13:46.409 --> 01:13:47.829
just said there was it doesn't always have to

01:13:47.829 --> 01:13:50.090
get messy and it doesn't always have to be emotional.

01:13:50.109 --> 01:13:51.789
It doesn't always have to be awkward. But what

01:13:51.789 --> 01:13:54.789
happens if that does come up in the space? What

01:13:54.789 --> 01:13:58.810
if it gets weird? You've got some options. You

01:13:58.810 --> 01:14:02.390
know, you can just be with it without having

01:14:02.390 --> 01:14:05.710
to change anything. Or, you know, if you sense

01:14:05.710 --> 01:14:08.840
that... the other person is wanting an off -ramp,

01:14:08.979 --> 01:14:11.619
you can follow their lead. If they're wanting

01:14:11.619 --> 01:14:15.159
to change the subject or divert, don't force

01:14:15.159 --> 01:14:17.000
them to stay in a place that they've made it

01:14:17.000 --> 01:14:20.779
clear they want to get out of. Right. Something

01:14:20.779 --> 01:14:22.960
that you mentioned earlier that I think we can

01:14:22.960 --> 01:14:25.659
bring back is calling things out when they happen.

01:14:25.840 --> 01:14:28.279
Yes. A guy feeling a certain way, or you just

01:14:28.279 --> 01:14:30.619
had an energy shift, or what was that pause about?

01:14:30.680 --> 01:14:33.710
What was that silence about? In the same way,

01:14:33.729 --> 01:14:35.569
if things get awkward or things get emotional,

01:14:35.689 --> 01:14:37.430
I think that we can go back to the advice that

01:14:37.430 --> 01:14:39.670
Chris gave us, which was if something shifts.

01:14:40.329 --> 01:14:42.630
Name it. Name it. You know, it feels like that

01:14:42.630 --> 01:14:45.489
just got weird. Yeah. And just name it and normalize

01:14:45.489 --> 01:14:48.170
it. Right. Like, oh, well, this is awkward. I

01:14:48.170 --> 01:14:50.029
think that's that's it. Right. And we're not

01:14:50.029 --> 01:14:52.130
making a joke. We're not trying to crack the

01:14:52.130 --> 01:14:53.989
tension or anything else. It's just like we're

01:14:53.989 --> 01:14:56.729
just naming it like, oh, wow, that that got really

01:14:56.729 --> 01:14:59.170
intense there for a second. Yeah. Are you OK

01:14:59.170 --> 01:15:01.920
with that? You're kind of naming if there's an

01:15:01.920 --> 01:15:03.319
elephant in the room, like, oh, did you notice

01:15:03.319 --> 01:15:04.800
an elephant just joined us in the conversation?

01:15:05.100 --> 01:15:07.880
Right. Yeah. That's weird. Yeah. What do we do?

01:15:07.979 --> 01:15:10.960
Do you want to keep talking or should we escort

01:15:10.960 --> 01:15:13.600
the elephant outside? Yeah. And it's, you know,

01:15:13.619 --> 01:15:15.779
you may not say it in a joking way, but there's

01:15:15.779 --> 01:15:18.380
something about naming elephants that that's

01:15:18.380 --> 01:15:20.439
really often all you need to do about the elephant

01:15:20.439 --> 01:15:22.939
is like, name it. Hey, this is Doug. This is

01:15:22.939 --> 01:15:25.680
my elephant. And we can continue to talk with

01:15:25.680 --> 01:15:28.840
Doug present. Yeah. Because what makes it weird

01:15:28.840 --> 01:15:31.619
is when you're aware of it and not saying anything

01:15:31.619 --> 01:15:35.880
about it. Now it's this thing that is visceral.

01:15:35.979 --> 01:15:37.859
Yeah, when you're dancing around it. But you're

01:15:37.859 --> 01:15:40.100
pretending it's not there. And that's where the

01:15:40.100 --> 01:15:41.800
weirdness comes from. Well, and that goes back

01:15:41.800 --> 01:15:43.899
to that sort of performance in that surface level

01:15:43.899 --> 01:15:45.979
thing, right? If we're not naming it, if we're

01:15:45.979 --> 01:15:48.020
just kind of ignoring it, we're not experiencing

01:15:48.020 --> 01:15:50.119
that depth of conversation anymore because we're

01:15:50.119 --> 01:15:52.180
just trying to ignore the elephant in the room.

01:15:52.319 --> 01:15:54.520
And it introduces a layer of pretense. Yeah.

01:15:54.619 --> 01:15:56.380
Right? Which is the opposite of authenticity.

01:15:56.989 --> 01:15:59.930
and vulnerability so just naming what's true

01:15:59.930 --> 01:16:02.170
naming what's actually happening and unfolding

01:16:02.170 --> 01:16:04.909
in the moment maintains the intimacy because

01:16:04.909 --> 01:16:06.989
it's you're in touch with what's true and you're

01:16:06.989 --> 01:16:10.149
expressing that i feel comfortable enough being

01:16:10.149 --> 01:16:12.310
honest with you about what i'm experiencing or

01:16:12.310 --> 01:16:14.609
about or about what i'm sensing in the space

01:16:14.609 --> 01:16:18.470
versus oh this got weird and now let's pretend

01:16:18.470 --> 01:16:22.229
it's not weird which sub communicates i no longer

01:16:22.229 --> 01:16:24.529
trust us to be in touch with the truth in this

01:16:24.529 --> 01:16:27.069
conversation And now it's not authentic and it's

01:16:27.069 --> 01:16:29.350
not vulnerable. Now it's a looking good dance

01:16:29.350 --> 01:16:32.609
again. Right. Right. So just naming it keeps

01:16:32.609 --> 01:16:35.470
it real. Yeah. Stay in it. Stay in the emotional,

01:16:35.590 --> 01:16:38.529
stay in the awkward, stay in the messy and call

01:16:38.529 --> 01:16:41.029
it out. Just talk about what's actually happening

01:16:41.029 --> 01:16:44.689
because that's really another way that we connect.

01:16:45.090 --> 01:16:48.310
Yeah. So some techniques that we can use, some

01:16:48.310 --> 01:16:52.390
guidelines. Take a breath before you try and

01:16:52.390 --> 01:16:55.000
fix things. Someone shares something tender,

01:16:55.100 --> 01:16:56.779
something painful, something honest, something

01:16:56.779 --> 01:17:00.140
raw. The instinct can be to say things like,

01:17:00.159 --> 01:17:01.779
you're going to be okay. You're going to get

01:17:01.779 --> 01:17:03.520
through this. It's all going to work out. This

01:17:03.520 --> 01:17:06.260
too shall pass. All that stuff, right? All of

01:17:06.260 --> 01:17:09.300
that stuff. And those are all attempts to fix

01:17:09.300 --> 01:17:12.520
something and an attempt to get a person into

01:17:12.520 --> 01:17:13.859
a different state than the one they're in. And

01:17:13.859 --> 01:17:16.520
don't do that. You have probably had a situation

01:17:16.520 --> 01:17:18.579
where you have shared something that has been

01:17:18.579 --> 01:17:22.430
deep and meaningful and heavy. and gotten that

01:17:22.430 --> 01:17:25.250
kind of a response, it's really irritating. It

01:17:25.250 --> 01:17:28.229
can feel dismissive of your feelings or of the

01:17:28.229 --> 01:17:30.949
situation that you're in. Don't try and fix things.

01:17:31.449 --> 01:17:34.069
You're not trying to fix or change someone else's

01:17:34.069 --> 01:17:37.149
experience. You're just being with them in it.

01:17:37.229 --> 01:17:40.170
Yeah. That's it. They've got permission to feel

01:17:40.170 --> 01:17:42.210
their feelings fully and not have to do it alone.

01:17:42.449 --> 01:17:44.390
Instead of saying something like, you know, oh,

01:17:44.550 --> 01:17:47.630
you're going to make it through this. Thank you

01:17:47.630 --> 01:17:50.289
for sharing that. that makes a lot of sense.

01:17:50.430 --> 01:17:54.229
I can totally understand. Thank you. Yeah. Or

01:17:54.229 --> 01:17:56.130
instead of like, don't feel so bad, it's, oh,

01:17:56.229 --> 01:17:58.710
this must be really hard for you. Yeah. Right?

01:17:58.789 --> 01:18:01.149
Like, I imagine that must be difficult and I'm

01:18:01.149 --> 01:18:02.710
sorry you're going through that. Thank you for

01:18:02.710 --> 01:18:05.149
sharing it with me. You're not trying to change

01:18:05.149 --> 01:18:07.710
anything. You're just acknowledging what's happening.

01:18:08.090 --> 01:18:10.869
Grateful that they trusted you enough to be vulnerable.

01:18:12.229 --> 01:18:14.909
Also, silence is your friend. Like, you don't

01:18:14.909 --> 01:18:17.670
necessarily have to say anything. Sometimes if

01:18:17.670 --> 01:18:20.569
someone is having whatever their experience is,

01:18:20.609 --> 01:18:25.789
just be. Yeah, a lot of times people feel awkward

01:18:25.789 --> 01:18:28.689
with silences and uncomfortable with silences.

01:18:28.949 --> 01:18:32.229
If you can get to a space where you feel comfortable

01:18:32.229 --> 01:18:34.970
sitting in silence with somebody, that's going

01:18:34.970 --> 01:18:39.369
to be huge in deepening your connection and developing

01:18:39.369 --> 01:18:43.630
intimacy with a person. And if you don't know

01:18:43.630 --> 01:18:47.640
what to say, you can say that. Oh, that's really

01:18:47.640 --> 01:18:50.079
good. I like that. You know what? I don't have

01:18:50.079 --> 01:18:51.600
the words right now. I don't know what to say,

01:18:51.760 --> 01:18:54.680
but I'm glad you told me that. Just know that

01:18:54.680 --> 01:18:59.720
I'm here. You don't have to have the magic words.

01:18:59.819 --> 01:19:02.039
You don't have to fix anything. You just have

01:19:02.039 --> 01:19:05.600
to be there. Be present. Searching for the right

01:19:05.600 --> 01:19:08.079
words can kind of pull you out of that. Totally.

01:19:08.340 --> 01:19:10.819
And now your attention is on... What do I need

01:19:10.819 --> 01:19:13.119
to do in order to ultimately in order to look

01:19:13.119 --> 01:19:15.239
good? Right. Which is not it. We talked about

01:19:15.239 --> 01:19:17.260
being present, right? That was a big part of

01:19:17.260 --> 01:19:19.979
building that intimacy. So if I'm thinking about

01:19:19.979 --> 01:19:23.060
what I need to say in order to make things right

01:19:23.060 --> 01:19:26.460
or make that silence comfortable or make someone

01:19:26.460 --> 01:19:29.699
feel okay, I'm no longer dropped into that conversation.

01:19:30.420 --> 01:19:33.520
I'm out of it. Here's another one that I've heard

01:19:33.520 --> 01:19:36.760
conversation about this recently, and I can kind

01:19:36.760 --> 01:19:39.489
of see it from both sides. sometimes when somebody

01:19:39.489 --> 01:19:41.930
shares a difficult experience with you, there

01:19:41.930 --> 01:19:44.989
can be a tendency to want to relate by sharing

01:19:44.989 --> 01:19:46.710
a similar experience that you've gone through.

01:19:46.930 --> 01:19:49.989
Okay. Right? Like, oh, you know what? That sucks.

01:19:50.189 --> 01:19:52.590
You know, something similar happened to me. And

01:19:52.590 --> 01:19:54.810
I've seen people online saying, don't do that.

01:19:54.869 --> 01:19:57.609
Don't pivot and make it about you. Yeah. And

01:19:57.609 --> 01:19:59.649
I can kind of get that, but I can also see the

01:19:59.649 --> 01:20:03.970
value. in sharing a personal experience of pain

01:20:03.970 --> 01:20:05.829
or vulnerability to demonstrate to the other

01:20:05.829 --> 01:20:07.529
person that they're not alone. So you get it.

01:20:07.569 --> 01:20:09.369
I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about

01:20:09.369 --> 01:20:11.770
don't ever do this or always do this. I think

01:20:11.770 --> 01:20:16.010
it's read the room and and be clear on like what

01:20:16.010 --> 01:20:18.390
your intention is. Part of that is is knowing

01:20:18.390 --> 01:20:20.770
the person. But you're right. It can feel like

01:20:20.770 --> 01:20:22.970
trying to divert folks back to yourself. And

01:20:22.970 --> 01:20:24.930
I'm about you back to me. Yeah. Or or trying

01:20:24.930 --> 01:20:26.510
to break the tension. Right. Oh, I'm sorry. You

01:20:26.510 --> 01:20:28.289
feel like let me let me put this into the space

01:20:28.289 --> 01:20:30.199
so you feel better. it can be us trying to fix

01:20:30.199 --> 01:20:32.840
again. So it can, it can sort of come across

01:20:32.840 --> 01:20:35.600
as that, or even, you know, in the, in the worst

01:20:35.600 --> 01:20:37.840
case scenario, like it might feel like one -upsmanship.

01:20:38.079 --> 01:20:40.180
So, right. Yeah. I think you're, you're right

01:20:40.180 --> 01:20:43.140
to say like, that's going to be situational.

01:20:43.380 --> 01:20:44.880
Yeah. You're going to have to use your awareness

01:20:44.880 --> 01:20:47.020
around that. Well, I had, I had an example of

01:20:47.020 --> 01:20:49.140
that come up today. A friend of mine shared something

01:20:49.140 --> 01:20:52.520
on, on Facebook that I didn't know. And his father's

01:20:52.520 --> 01:20:54.939
dealing with lung cancer. Right. And so he posted

01:20:54.939 --> 01:20:58.140
a thing about a long fundraising bike ride that

01:20:58.140 --> 01:21:01.270
he's doing. Yeah. And so this was news to me.

01:21:01.310 --> 01:21:03.810
So I shared something in the comments saying,

01:21:03.869 --> 01:21:05.310
oh, I didn't realize your dad was dealing with

01:21:05.310 --> 01:21:08.210
that. I'm sorry to hear he's going through all

01:21:08.210 --> 01:21:11.449
the chemo and how's he doing? And I lost my father

01:21:11.449 --> 01:21:14.989
to cancer several years ago. And so part of the

01:21:14.989 --> 01:21:17.109
thought was, oh, I could point to that, but it

01:21:17.109 --> 01:21:19.109
didn't feel right. I didn't want to make it about

01:21:19.109 --> 01:21:21.689
me. Probably because he already knows that, right?

01:21:21.750 --> 01:21:22.890
So there's no need for me to - So there's no

01:21:22.890 --> 01:21:25.569
need for you to say it. This isn't new. I don't

01:21:25.569 --> 01:21:27.810
need to share that in order for him to know that

01:21:27.810 --> 01:21:30.899
I get it. And so I just kept the focus on, on

01:21:30.899 --> 01:21:33.359
him and his dad. I thought I'd mentioned that

01:21:33.359 --> 01:21:35.199
because it's a thing that we sometimes do. Yeah,

01:21:35.220 --> 01:21:36.279
no, I think that's good. You share a personal

01:21:36.279 --> 01:21:38.319
experience and sometimes that helps and sometimes

01:21:38.319 --> 01:21:39.819
maybe not. So you need to use your judgment.

01:21:40.300 --> 01:21:42.819
Other things that might make things feel weird

01:21:42.819 --> 01:21:45.460
in the moment. There can be a tendency to want

01:21:45.460 --> 01:21:48.520
to apologize for, for being human. Oh yeah. Yeah.

01:21:48.739 --> 01:21:50.359
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm crying.

01:21:50.380 --> 01:21:52.479
I'm crying right now and I'm apologizing while

01:21:52.479 --> 01:21:55.199
I'm crying. Don't apologize for being human.

01:21:55.260 --> 01:21:57.819
If you get choked up, if your voice cracks, tears

01:21:57.819 --> 01:22:00.739
come on, that's not you being dramatic. That's

01:22:00.739 --> 01:22:05.579
you experiencing that rawness and processing

01:22:05.579 --> 01:22:08.159
it. You're just showing up. That means you're

01:22:08.159 --> 01:22:10.340
connected to what's happening and what you're

01:22:10.340 --> 01:22:12.279
speaking about. You're just being real. If you

01:22:12.279 --> 01:22:14.960
think about a time when someone has gotten upset

01:22:14.960 --> 01:22:17.619
and cried in front of you, and then they're apologizing

01:22:17.619 --> 01:22:19.840
for it, there's never a need for the apology,

01:22:20.020 --> 01:22:23.159
right? It sort of says it's not valid for me

01:22:23.159 --> 01:22:26.779
to be expressing my feelings this way. And it's

01:22:26.779 --> 01:22:30.020
kind of the whole point. Yeah. Right? So don't

01:22:30.020 --> 01:22:32.000
apologize for being willing to be vulnerable

01:22:32.000 --> 01:22:37.079
in front of someone else. And if someone gets

01:22:37.079 --> 01:22:39.720
emotional and starts apologizing to you, instead

01:22:39.720 --> 01:22:41.939
of saying, oh, don't apologize, you can take

01:22:41.939 --> 01:22:44.380
it a level deeper and say, hey, look, thank you

01:22:44.380 --> 01:22:47.479
for being this vulnerable with me. Never mind,

01:22:47.520 --> 01:22:49.640
don't apologize. That can sound like you're placating

01:22:49.640 --> 01:22:53.380
them. No, this is, this is a depth of connection

01:22:53.380 --> 01:22:55.520
that I really cherish and value. And thank you

01:22:55.520 --> 01:22:57.939
for trusting me enough to be raw with me like

01:22:57.939 --> 01:23:01.000
this. It means a lot to me. Yeah. Sometimes the

01:23:01.000 --> 01:23:04.600
closest we ever feel to somebody is when they're,

01:23:04.600 --> 01:23:07.779
you know, they're sobbing and their mascara is

01:23:07.779 --> 01:23:10.100
running and there's snot. And it's like, you

01:23:10.100 --> 01:23:13.300
know, at our least put together is when we are

01:23:13.300 --> 01:23:17.579
often the most connected. Right. Be willing for

01:23:17.579 --> 01:23:19.760
things to be messy. You got one precious life

01:23:19.760 --> 01:23:22.500
and it's an opportunity to stop playing it so

01:23:22.500 --> 01:23:27.039
damn safe. And you'll be fine. Make messes. Be

01:23:27.039 --> 01:23:28.779
willing to make messes and then trust that you

01:23:28.779 --> 01:23:33.439
can clean them up and live a little. Right? Like,

01:23:33.439 --> 01:23:36.800
honestly, when do you feel most alive? Some of

01:23:36.800 --> 01:23:39.319
the moments of the deepest connection with people,

01:23:39.460 --> 01:23:43.460
the richest, most authentic conversations you

01:23:43.460 --> 01:23:44.880
ever have. If you're anything like me, those

01:23:44.880 --> 01:23:46.340
are the moments when you feel the most alive.

01:23:46.520 --> 01:23:49.810
So don't deny yourself that. take a risk. It's

01:23:49.810 --> 01:23:51.909
totally worth it. I mean, those are the parts

01:23:51.909 --> 01:23:55.229
of, of a, of a relationship, a friendship that

01:23:55.229 --> 01:23:57.829
I cherish the most as well. Right. Like when

01:23:57.829 --> 01:24:01.050
you have that, that deep sense of connection,

01:24:01.170 --> 01:24:04.649
like that's what makes the laughs more hearty

01:24:04.649 --> 01:24:06.829
when you have them because you're with someone

01:24:06.829 --> 01:24:09.890
that you're truly connected with. Yeah. That's

01:24:09.890 --> 01:24:13.090
what makes the, the, the silly times just like

01:24:13.090 --> 01:24:16.270
that much more precious. And, uh, for sure. And

01:24:16.270 --> 01:24:19.439
what you're doing, but, Having these experiences

01:24:19.439 --> 01:24:24.300
is you're broadening the horizon of human experiences

01:24:24.300 --> 01:24:29.340
that you're allowing yourself to have. It enriches

01:24:29.340 --> 01:24:32.119
the human experience for you. It's a broader

01:24:32.119 --> 01:24:34.800
palette of experiences that you've gone through

01:24:34.800 --> 01:24:37.100
and lived through and even developed some facility

01:24:37.100 --> 01:24:40.739
with and capacity with. And it's just more places

01:24:40.739 --> 01:24:45.779
you feel comfortable going. Lastly, knowing when

01:24:45.779 --> 01:24:48.640
things have... come to a conclusion knowing how

01:24:48.640 --> 01:24:51.439
to close things in a way that's gentle right

01:24:51.439 --> 01:24:54.220
and how to transition out of yeah this kind of

01:24:54.220 --> 01:24:56.600
conversation and back into either something lighter

01:24:56.600 --> 01:24:59.420
or how to wrap it up in a way that's natural

01:24:59.420 --> 01:25:02.159
what comes to mind for me is you know something

01:25:02.159 --> 01:25:04.600
like what you said earlier like thank you for

01:25:04.600 --> 01:25:07.260
trusting me with this this really meant a lot

01:25:07.260 --> 01:25:10.300
to me yeah you mean a lot to me and just and

01:25:10.300 --> 01:25:13.020
just thank you yeah like if you were are there

01:25:13.020 --> 01:25:15.310
any ways that you close conversations like that

01:25:15.310 --> 01:25:17.550
anything that you any go -tos i think very similarly

01:25:17.550 --> 01:25:19.850
you know i really appreciate you sharing that

01:25:19.850 --> 01:25:22.890
with me yeah and if i'm wrapping up a coaching

01:25:22.890 --> 01:25:24.510
engagement with somebody that i've been having

01:25:24.510 --> 01:25:27.329
conversations weekly or every other week for

01:25:27.329 --> 01:25:29.510
say six months like i make a point of saying

01:25:29.510 --> 01:25:32.229
hey it it takes a lot to open up and be vulnerable

01:25:32.229 --> 01:25:33.989
with another human being and i want you to know

01:25:33.989 --> 01:25:36.630
i don't take that lightly yeah yeah i had one

01:25:36.630 --> 01:25:39.239
coaching engagement that went on for It was like

01:25:39.239 --> 01:25:41.460
a six month engagement. And sometimes we would

01:25:41.460 --> 01:25:43.720
go long. We would be scheduled for 45 minutes

01:25:43.720 --> 01:25:46.600
and we would go 90. We would double our time,

01:25:46.640 --> 01:25:48.840
but it just needed the space. And then we would

01:25:48.840 --> 01:25:51.239
have to wrap it up. And thank you for showing

01:25:51.239 --> 01:25:55.500
up authentically. And sometimes too, people don't

01:25:55.500 --> 01:25:57.159
want to continue. Like I've had that happen in

01:25:57.159 --> 01:25:59.739
coaching engagements as well, where someone has

01:25:59.739 --> 01:26:01.520
sort of said, like, I don't think I want to.

01:26:02.210 --> 01:26:04.250
dive into this any longer. I think like, can

01:26:04.250 --> 01:26:06.529
we table this until next week or next month or

01:26:06.529 --> 01:26:09.069
whenever it was? And yeah, something like, you

01:26:09.069 --> 01:26:10.529
know, like we don't have to continue talking

01:26:10.529 --> 01:26:12.529
about this right now. And when you want to pick

01:26:12.529 --> 01:26:15.109
this back up, I'm here. I'm here for it. Yeah.

01:26:15.189 --> 01:26:18.789
Yeah, absolutely. And what that says is I hear

01:26:18.789 --> 01:26:21.689
you. You're there's no rush here. We don't have,

01:26:21.770 --> 01:26:24.489
we we've got time, we've got space and I'm in

01:26:24.489 --> 01:26:26.750
it with you when you want to, to pick that thread

01:26:26.750 --> 01:26:29.960
back up. Yeah. We're wrapping this up for now.

01:26:30.020 --> 01:26:32.300
It says whatever level of depth or vulnerability

01:26:32.300 --> 01:26:37.420
that you want is welcomed but not required. Correct.

01:26:37.500 --> 01:26:43.939
Yeah. So we unpacked a lot there. So again, let's

01:26:43.939 --> 01:26:46.600
throw it back to you, right? What's your default

01:26:46.600 --> 01:26:48.760
move when things get weird and emotional? Do

01:26:48.760 --> 01:26:51.739
you lean into that awkwardness or do you pull

01:26:51.739 --> 01:26:54.600
away? How comfortable are you with awkwardness

01:26:54.600 --> 01:26:57.880
and emotional stuff going on? How comfortable

01:26:57.880 --> 01:26:59.920
are you with silence in a conversation? Oh, yeah,

01:26:59.920 --> 01:27:00.979
how comfortable are you with silence? Just allowing

01:27:00.979 --> 01:27:05.840
a pause, allowing a moment to breathe. Next time

01:27:05.840 --> 01:27:09.159
that something comes up, how might it feel for

01:27:09.159 --> 01:27:11.859
you just to stay in it? Yeah, just be with it,

01:27:11.899 --> 01:27:14.579
stay in it. And that's how you develop the capacity.

01:27:14.739 --> 01:27:19.119
You expand your emotional capacity and you make

01:27:19.119 --> 01:27:23.720
yourself larger as a safe container for... a

01:27:23.720 --> 01:27:26.800
broader palette of feelings and for a broader

01:27:26.800 --> 01:27:29.560
range of of feeling intensity you just become

01:27:29.560 --> 01:27:31.779
a larger container and someone that can hold

01:27:31.779 --> 01:27:34.560
space for more for people and practice it and

01:27:34.560 --> 01:27:36.500
and the more that you practice this the stronger

01:27:36.500 --> 01:27:39.140
and the the the larger your capacity will be

01:27:39.140 --> 01:27:43.340
i'm reminded of uh i got a cold plunge and you

01:27:43.340 --> 01:27:45.380
know the first time i used it it's like a minute

01:27:45.380 --> 01:27:47.699
this is the cold plunge is it's between three

01:27:47.699 --> 01:27:51.729
and five degrees celsius which is like It's like

01:27:51.729 --> 01:27:53.710
less than 40 degrees Fahrenheit. That's between

01:27:53.710 --> 01:27:55.890
35 and 39 Fahrenheit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's

01:27:55.890 --> 01:27:58.390
cold. It's cold. Just above freezing. So the

01:27:58.390 --> 01:28:00.010
first time, it's a minute, and you feel like

01:28:00.010 --> 01:28:01.909
you're dying. Your body is screaming at you like,

01:28:01.989 --> 01:28:03.649
this is not safe. Oh, you did a minute your first

01:28:03.649 --> 01:28:06.430
time? I did 15 seconds. Right. And my body was

01:28:06.430 --> 01:28:08.670
like, nope, shut it down. Nope, nope, nope. Get

01:28:08.670 --> 01:28:11.350
out. Yeah. The second time, I think I did two

01:28:11.350 --> 01:28:13.710
minutes. Okay. And then I did three. Look at

01:28:13.710 --> 01:28:15.750
you. I only did 30 seconds my second time. And

01:28:15.750 --> 01:28:17.649
now I can do five minutes, and it's no problem.

01:28:17.890 --> 01:28:21.720
But it's that. gradually increasing your exposure

01:28:21.720 --> 01:28:23.720
to something that's initially uncomfortable and

01:28:23.720 --> 01:28:26.359
then it's totally fine. And then it even becomes

01:28:26.359 --> 01:28:29.619
enjoyable. Yeah, absolutely. Another takeaway

01:28:29.619 --> 01:28:31.520
here is we talked about when things get messy,

01:28:31.600 --> 01:28:34.840
when things get awkward. To summarize it, if

01:28:34.840 --> 01:28:37.859
you can just make room for a person and be open

01:28:37.859 --> 01:28:42.720
while things are getting messy, then people walk

01:28:42.720 --> 01:28:44.279
away knowing that you're someone that they can

01:28:44.279 --> 01:28:47.720
trust. Absolutely. A hundred percent. A hundred

01:28:47.720 --> 01:28:50.869
percent. Yeah, for sure. And it's not about getting

01:28:50.869 --> 01:28:53.270
anything perfectly here. It's about being, in

01:28:53.270 --> 01:28:55.869
a lot of ways, it's just being with the messiness

01:28:55.869 --> 01:28:57.869
and the imperfection of it and the humanity of

01:28:57.869 --> 01:29:00.750
it. Yeah. That's worth doing. Cultivating that

01:29:00.750 --> 01:29:05.029
capacity is really, it's really worthwhile. Yeah.

01:29:05.810 --> 01:29:07.829
All right, let's bring it home. So we walked

01:29:07.829 --> 01:29:09.449
through a lot. We walked through a lot about

01:29:09.449 --> 01:29:11.890
the steps it takes to go deep. It's not about

01:29:11.890 --> 01:29:14.310
asking better questions. It's not just about

01:29:14.310 --> 01:29:17.810
that. It's about creating depth and creating

01:29:17.810 --> 01:29:22.390
an open, space for for depth when it's not just

01:29:22.390 --> 01:29:24.789
for other people in your life this is something

01:29:24.789 --> 01:29:27.890
that will be for you as well we talked about

01:29:27.890 --> 01:29:31.369
confidence definitely you become much more comfortable

01:29:31.369 --> 01:29:35.630
in your own skin in a much broader array of situations

01:29:35.630 --> 01:29:38.529
yeah you'll experience a lot less fear in your

01:29:38.529 --> 01:29:43.449
life writ large it's pretty great actually yeah

01:29:43.449 --> 01:29:46.149
so practically what what's that gonna look like

01:29:46.149 --> 01:29:51.090
listening We've got a great podcast about the

01:29:51.090 --> 01:29:53.670
different levels that you can listen at. If you

01:29:53.670 --> 01:29:55.649
haven't heard it yet, maybe check it out. Five

01:29:55.649 --> 01:29:57.409
levels of listening. Five levels of listening.

01:29:57.590 --> 01:30:00.689
Yeah, creating spaces to have these kinds of

01:30:00.689 --> 01:30:03.069
talks. We talked about being the person who goes

01:30:03.069 --> 01:30:05.810
first. Huge. Right? We talked about being the

01:30:05.810 --> 01:30:07.569
person who stays present in the conversation,

01:30:07.850 --> 01:30:10.050
even if that gets awkward, even if that gets

01:30:10.050 --> 01:30:13.750
emotional. Practice for the week. Pick one person,

01:30:13.829 --> 01:30:16.909
and instead of giving them a hi, how are you?

01:30:17.440 --> 01:30:19.739
Let's try something. Try one of the deeper questions.

01:30:19.779 --> 01:30:22.220
That's deeper. Yeah. Alternative assignment.

01:30:22.239 --> 01:30:24.880
If someone asks you, hey, how's it going? Rather

01:30:24.880 --> 01:30:27.460
than just answering unconsciously, yeah, I'm

01:30:27.460 --> 01:30:31.739
good. How are you? Take a moment, pause, and

01:30:31.739 --> 01:30:33.800
actually share something more meaningful. Hey,

01:30:33.840 --> 01:30:35.600
how's it going? You know what? It's actually

01:30:35.600 --> 01:30:38.380
been a tough week. Or you know what? It's been

01:30:38.380 --> 01:30:40.300
a great week. I'm really proud of something that

01:30:40.300 --> 01:30:44.159
happened. But give them the non -superficial

01:30:44.159 --> 01:30:47.039
answer. Share something real. Yeah. Take a moment

01:30:47.039 --> 01:30:49.460
this week and actually drop in. Try to go deeper

01:30:49.460 --> 01:30:52.079
with somebody. See how it goes. Do this. If you've

01:30:52.079 --> 01:30:54.039
been enjoying this video or any of our videos,

01:30:54.279 --> 01:30:57.600
like, subscribe, forward it to friends. It helps

01:30:57.600 --> 01:31:00.079
us out. It helps a lot. Yeah. And if you want

01:31:00.079 --> 01:31:02.300
to work together, you can get in contact with

01:31:02.300 --> 01:31:05.979
us through our website, through LinkedIn. And

01:31:05.979 --> 01:31:08.880
if not, just thanks for being here with us. And

01:31:08.880 --> 01:31:11.220
until next time. We hope this was useful. Thanks

01:31:11.220 --> 01:31:11.680
for tuning in.