Connection: The Art of Storytelling

WEBVTT

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I read this piece once. It was an interview with

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David Blaine. The street magician. Yeah. And

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he said the gist of it was, so he does this like

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up close sleight of hand magic. And he said,

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now that this is on YouTube, so his whole life

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is on YouTube. That's his whole career, which

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means people can go back and watch it frame by

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frame every time. So everybody can figure out

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how the trick works every time. That's over for

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him. So what he has to do is design tricks that

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are so good, the explanation blows your mind.

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Right. And I think that's kind of what I'm trying

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to do. Welcome to Make Yourself Clear. I'm Chris.

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I'm Patrick. And today we have a special guest.

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Chris Graham teaches lawyers and other professionals

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how to connect with their clients and teams.

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And since 2016, he's trained over 15 ,000 people.

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at North America's leading law firms, large and

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small companies, government agencies, and charities.

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And in 2022, Chris was the head of speaker coaching

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at TEDx Toronto, which is Canada's largest TEDx

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event. Prior to founding Tell People, which is

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Chris's company, where he does training and coaching

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and the topics of communication and public speaking,

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etc. Prior to that, Chris was a lawyer. So he's

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a recovering lawyer and had previously worked

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at one of the world's top banking law firms,

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Sullivan & Cromwell, and one of Canada's top

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indigenous rights law firms, Pape & Salter. He

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studied at Oxford University, University of Toronto

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Law School, and Acadia University, and is also

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a graduate of the stand -up comedy program at

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the Second City in Toronto, which is perhaps

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his most prestigious pedigree. I would say so.

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Chris, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for

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having me, guys. I really appreciate it. Yeah,

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it's a pleasure to have you on. Audience knows

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our general focus here with this show is topics

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related to clarity of thought and communication.

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And given your passion for and work in the field

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of educating and training other people, what

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you do is kind of dead center of the bullseye

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in terms of what we're interested in. So we thought

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we might pick your brains and benefit from your

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wisdom and experience. Well, that's very kind

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of you to say. Let's see how we get on here before

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we start branding it as wisdom. Yeah, no pressure.

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So we've done a little bit of an introduction.

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Can you give us a little bit of your backstory

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and fill in any of the gaps that we're missing,

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your background in law? How did you come to be

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like a communication storyteller, expert coach?

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That's a great question, man. Thanks for asking.

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It's funny, I never know how far back to go.

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I guess the most concise answer, the most salient

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one for this context is... I was practicing law,

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you name the two places, but they're two very

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different contexts. So one is a giant law firm

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in New York City. And the other one, at least

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when I joined, was four guys in a house in the

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annex. So a very tiny boutique firm. And what

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I took from that experience, especially the second

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one, is that I don't really like having a boss,

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which is not to knock any of the bosses that

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I had, but it was literally just like four guys

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and me in a house. And when they would have partners

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meetings, they would go into the kitchen and

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shut the door. And I would just sit there in

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the living room and twiddle my thumbs, which

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is absolutely the appropriate way to run a law

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firm. But I was having a strong reaction to this.

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So I decided I would start my own thing. And

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having been a lawyer twice in two very different

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ways and not really being compelled by it, or

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at least not eight hours a day interested in

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it, I thought I would start my own thing and

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do something totally different. At the time in

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Toronto, there was this big storytelling scene.

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I think it's still going pretty strong. You guys

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may have participated in this. You just rock

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up to a bar and tell a story on stage, kind of

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like standup comedy, but stories, not jokes.

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So I was doing this a lot and I was relatively

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good at it. So I thought maybe I'll write a training

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session, market it to lawyers because that's

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my community. There's a tradition of getting

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this kind of training in legal communities. So

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there's a budget and time for these sorts of

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things. And I pitched it around for a year, took

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a year to sell the first one and they liked it.

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And then it took a while to sell the next one

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and they liked it. And so that was. 10 years

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ago. It's been sort of slowly growing by word

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of mouth ever since. Wow. And so since those

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kind of humble and organic beginnings almost

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10 years ago, you've trained over 15 ,000 professionals.

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So you obviously got some traction and this has

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been working. Congrats on the success. I'm curious

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from your experience working with that many people,

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what major patterns do you notice in terms of

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communication gaps? the things people struggle

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with. I imagine there are some themes that surface

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again and again. I'd love to hear your take on

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what those are. That's a good question. You know,

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it's interesting. I am like, I think, constitutionally

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opposed to generalizations. And I think something

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that I notice over and over again in people is

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a tendency to have what I just learned today

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is sometimes called main character energy. And

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so, yeah, and I'd never heard that phrase before.

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I cannot take credit for it. That's an amazing.

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phrase um but it's a tendency to universalize

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your perception of things and not in a not in

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a mean way or in a in a calculating way just

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in our human way i mean we have to make generalizations

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to get on in the world but i think one of the

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hardest things about communication like where

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it can go the most sideways unexpectedly is when

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you fail to realize that your perception of the

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world is not universal And that makes it very

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hard to communicate. It makes it very hard to

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understand why your communication isn't working.

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And that manifests in lots and lots of different

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ways. But I think that's probably the main problem

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or challenge that I see for people over the last

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10 years. I don't know. You guys must see this

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kind of stuff in year one or two. Like, what

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do you guys think? Yeah. Yeah. I really like

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the way you put that because a lot of the work

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that I do in one -on -one coaching with leaders

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and executives. is around communication because

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the majority of what we do and where things fall

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apart in particular is some form of communication

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failure. And I like what you said there about

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the fundamental flaw being this presumption that

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others are like we are or that our perspective

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is an obvious one. And then therefore, if it

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makes sense in my head, then whatever noises

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I make to try to represent that obviously also

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makes sense to everyone. Yeah. Except not at

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all. How do you navigate this? Like when you

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encounter this in the world, how do you, I'm

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curious. One of the ways I've started thinking

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about and talking about communication is in my

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former life, I was a product guy kind of in the

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startup world. And so I talk about it from a

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product manager perspective. And I say, okay,

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if I envision my communication as a product or

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as a set of features on a product, then it's

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a thing that I'm delivering to someone else.

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for a particular purpose. And so I ask some product

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manager questions like, who's my user avatar?

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What do they care about? What's their level of

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technical understanding and expertise? What are

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the things they're focused on so I understand

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the user? And then what's the use case? What

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are they going to do with this product that I'm

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handing them? And so if I know who my user is

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and I know what they're trying to accomplish,

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I can reverse engineer what the product has to

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be to be useful to them. And so it gets my attention

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off of what I feel like talking about and over

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into what am I giving this person? What are they

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going to do with it? Like what tool do they need

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for their job and how can I give them the right

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tool? That's an interesting analogy. I like that.

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I like that. It makes perfect sense to me, but

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that could be my main character syndrome. When

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I talk to product people, they seem to like it,

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but I think it's one of these things you've got

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to actually practice to get better at. A hundred

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percent. I mean, you guys must, I mean, in a

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way you practice all the time, you do this podcast

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and. I mean, it's extra challenging because you

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can't actually see the people you're talking

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to. Like the audience just exists. Their imagination

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is like a construct. Yeah, we just lob it out

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and we hope that it lands. That's not bad strategy,

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man. That's how I do it. It feels like. That's

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kind of all you can do, especially in a medium

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like this. You just kind of put it out there

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and you hope that someone has a takeaway. I come

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from a performance background, so a lot of theater,

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music, that sort of thing. And that's a similar

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thing to where, you know. you put something out

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into the world and you just kind of, you hope

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it lands in the way that you want it to land.

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And sometimes people's interpretations of things

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are not at all where you were going with it.

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I was reading an interview with Don McLean who

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wrote American Pie. Yeah, and he was talking

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about like, he wrote it in a way that was very

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open to interpretation and that was on purpose

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so that people can draw what they need at the

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time that they're hearing the song from the song

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itself. I heard... So two quotes. One was from

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another songwriter who said something like, the

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trick to writing really good song lyrics is they

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have to be specific enough that it's clearly

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about something. In the songwriter's mind, it's

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about something personal, but it also needs to

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be vague and generic enough that people can project

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all manner of different things onto it so that

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they can also find it meaningful and connected

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to their own lives. Yeah. There's a sweet spot.

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Back to Don McLean, there was an interview where

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somebody asked him, what does American Pie mean?

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Yeah. And his response was American pie means

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I don't have to work anymore if I don't want

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to. Yeah. I have another friend actually, whose

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name is also Chris. And he always says the more,

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the more personal, the more universal. Right.

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There's a great Taylor Swift song called dear

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John, which is a perfect example of this. It's

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about a very specific person, but that's also

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John Doe is the name of the sort of totally like

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unidentified thing. Yeah. I appreciate what you're

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saying, Patrick, especially about the performance

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thing. I wrestle with this. increasingly in my

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work, which is I work on communication and I

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teach people in these workshops and so on. But

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I actually, the way that I come up with the things

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that I try to teach people is really, I think

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of it as much more of a creative expression.

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It's like, what am I interested in making? What

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feels meaningful for me? And then I like, my

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audience is in my mind when I do this. I don't

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exist on an island, but I definitely don't, what

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you described, Chris, you know, what's the avatar

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and how do I, what's the use case and so on.

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like indirectly at best is the way I have sort

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of thought about this. And over the years, it's

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kind of, it's kind of paid off. I guess it's

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been fortunate that most of the stuff that I've

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made has found some kind of an audience, but

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I do sometimes feel a bit weird when people ask

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me to work with them and they're like, you know,

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why do you think your material is relevant now?

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And so on. And I have to be like, I don't know

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at all. Actually, I just do it. And if people

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like it, I keep doing it. And not very many people

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are satisfied with that answer. So I try to steer

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the conversation away from that. question that's

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good in the coaching landscape it's it's a similar

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like what do you do like uh and i i can show

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you it's tough to tell you right right yeah so

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in terms of the work that you do imagine you

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work in several formats like facilitated workshops

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with smaller different sizes of groups one -on

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-one coaching what's the breakdown of the the

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different kinds of services you provide I mean,

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it's mostly group -based work. I take now a very

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limited number of individual coaching clients

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and that work is primarily focused on talk writing.

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So TEDx Toronto is no more and TEDx I think is

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kind of on the wane, but like making a TED style

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talk where it's really important to you, it's

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meaningful, you've set aside like a lot of time

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to work on it. I'll help people do that on a

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limited basis every year, a couple of people.

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And then the rest of it is more, I guess it's

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called a workshop. Somebody actually... said

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this great thing to me yesterday. They called

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me because they wanted something that was a keynote,

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but not a lecture, not a workshop, but they want

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people to do stuff. And that's basically what

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I do. So I try to make things that are like very

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interesting, very meaningful, also very interactive,

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because like not even I can listen to myself

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talk for an hour. And so I call it a workshop,

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but it's also, there's a real performance element.

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It's very, it's sort of low on the lecture side.

00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:12.960
I feel like that answer was very confusing to

00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:15.779
your point. No, no, it's like kind of triangulating

00:12:15.779 --> 00:12:18.240
in on kind of what it is, but also some of the

00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.120
things that some of the categories it doesn't

00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:22.320
fit perfectly into. I don't know what you call

00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:25.259
these, these non -workshop, non -speech keynote

00:12:25.259 --> 00:12:29.120
talks, let's say. Do you have a number of them

00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:31.179
that are prepackaged and ready to go and you

00:12:31.179 --> 00:12:33.039
just kind of offer a menu of choices to people

00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:36.259
or do you design them custom a la carte? Is it

00:12:36.259 --> 00:12:38.639
a mix of both? I guess it's kind of a mix of

00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:41.000
both. Like if I zoom out on my whole career for

00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:43.000
the last decade, I've tried to write at least

00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:47.159
one show a year and I counted it up once. I mean,

00:12:47.179 --> 00:12:50.820
I think I probably written 15 shows at different

00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:53.639
portions. Two of those 15 account for like 80

00:12:53.639 --> 00:12:57.039
% of my work as with most things. And so I guess

00:12:57.039 --> 00:12:58.799
at any given time, I have a couple of things

00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:00.440
that I've been doing a bunch and I really like,

00:13:00.500 --> 00:13:03.740
depending on the situation, I'll sometimes make

00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:05.639
something a bit different if I have more time,

00:13:05.779 --> 00:13:08.100
like if I'm not very busy. I'll say yes to way

00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:10.539
more things. And that's often when I'll create

00:13:10.539 --> 00:13:13.539
more stuff. But increasingly, I think there's

00:13:13.539 --> 00:13:15.919
a huge advantage to having, for me at least,

00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:18.039
to having something that people can see in advance

00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:20.919
and know what they're getting. And it also helps

00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:22.679
me, you know, there's less, obviously there's

00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:24.720
less time spent trying to create new material,

00:13:24.740 --> 00:13:26.620
but all of that time then gets poured into rehearsal.

00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:30.759
And there's no substitute for just doing it a

00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:32.460
hundred times in front of different people and

00:13:32.460 --> 00:13:34.279
ideas emerge. And I mean, you guys know all of

00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:37.759
this stuff. Yeah, for sure. If we talked five

00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:39.120
years ago, I'd probably have a very different

00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:43.080
answer to that question. Lately, I'm congealing

00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:45.519
around this notion of I want to do a few things

00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:47.700
very, very well and then just try to find the

00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:50.100
people with whom that resonates. And hopefully

00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:53.379
there's enough resonance that I can sustain myself.

00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:56.799
Right. Yeah. How long is an event typically?

00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:01.240
Like an hour, 75 minutes, give or take. So the

00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:03.639
work you're doing is you're helping people sort

00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:06.379
of improve their communication skills. You're

00:14:06.379 --> 00:14:09.399
helping people to be able to be better storytellers.

00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.139
I had a speech coach who was a director of a

00:14:13.139 --> 00:14:14.740
production that I was in once who said, time

00:14:14.740 --> 00:14:18.580
is our most valuable currency. And so the work

00:14:18.580 --> 00:14:20.320
that you're doing, it sounds like, is helping

00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:22.639
people to improve their communication so that

00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:24.779
when someone does give you their attention and

00:14:24.779 --> 00:14:26.399
their time, which is the most valuable thing

00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:29.299
that they have, you are helping them to spend

00:14:29.299 --> 00:14:32.000
it in a way that when they walk away, they won't

00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:33.879
be like, man, I wish I hadn't spent my time there.

00:14:35.289 --> 00:14:37.590
Yeah, I think that's fair. I would say I maybe

00:14:37.590 --> 00:14:39.870
come at it in a slightly different way, which

00:14:39.870 --> 00:14:43.210
is more about how people can be present with

00:14:43.210 --> 00:14:46.710
each other and just have meaningful interactions.

00:14:48.409 --> 00:14:52.090
So I'm much less outcome -oriented. I appreciate

00:14:52.090 --> 00:14:53.509
what you're saying, Patrick, and I think that

00:14:53.509 --> 00:14:56.029
makes sense. I feel like I've spent my time well

00:14:56.029 --> 00:14:57.909
in this conversation that we're having. This

00:14:57.909 --> 00:15:01.330
is very meaningful. But for me, at least, foregrounding

00:15:01.330 --> 00:15:04.669
meaning and presence. is a bit agnostic to the

00:15:04.669 --> 00:15:06.929
actual outcome. And I just sort of trust that

00:15:06.929 --> 00:15:08.870
if we connect meaningfully, whatever emerges

00:15:08.870 --> 00:15:11.529
from that will be worth its time, irrespective

00:15:11.529 --> 00:15:13.509
of whatever it looks like. I see you guys are

00:15:13.509 --> 00:15:15.169
nodding a lot. I guess everybody can see that

00:15:15.169 --> 00:15:18.009
we're on video. We're on video. I did one of

00:15:18.009 --> 00:15:19.309
these the other day and it was not on video.

00:15:19.389 --> 00:15:21.070
And so I kept having to, we were like pointing

00:15:21.070 --> 00:15:22.649
out each other's facial expressions. Narrating

00:15:22.649 --> 00:15:25.309
the... Well, to be fair, some people might only

00:15:25.309 --> 00:15:28.549
be listening. Is there a specific tool set or

00:15:28.549 --> 00:15:31.889
like a practical exercise that you'll incorporate

00:15:31.889 --> 00:15:35.110
in most of your trainings? Is there like a building

00:15:35.110 --> 00:15:37.350
block that you start with? Is there a foundation

00:15:37.350 --> 00:15:39.669
that you set? I guess it really depends on the

00:15:39.669 --> 00:15:41.549
challenge that people are trying to work on.

00:15:41.669 --> 00:15:44.629
So if it's storytelling, there's a simple framework

00:15:44.629 --> 00:15:46.830
that I learned somewhere. It's challenge, choice,

00:15:46.929 --> 00:15:49.090
outcome. So if you're trying to figure out a

00:15:49.090 --> 00:15:51.190
story to tell people, what's the challenge you

00:15:51.190 --> 00:15:53.610
face? What choices you make in response to that

00:15:53.610 --> 00:15:55.399
challenge? And then what happened? as a result

00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:57.159
of your choice. So that's a handy framework.

00:15:57.700 --> 00:16:00.779
But also, to be honest, at a higher level, I

00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:02.559
think being in like being in the communication

00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:05.259
business means you just have to do it well in

00:16:05.259 --> 00:16:08.139
front of people so they can understand how to

00:16:08.139 --> 00:16:11.539
do it well. You're modeling it for them. Yeah.

00:16:11.580 --> 00:16:14.379
And there's a real like I maybe this is it's

00:16:14.379 --> 00:16:16.600
like this for other topics, but like you better

00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:18.899
be an amazing communicator slash storyteller

00:16:18.899 --> 00:16:21.360
if you're out there trying to teach people communication.

00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:26.159
And I sort of imagine people are paying like

00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:28.039
very close attention to what's happening at the

00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:30.519
front of the room when I'm up there because I'm

00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:33.159
allegedly supposed to be very good at this. But

00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:34.700
circling back to your question, I guess my basic

00:16:34.700 --> 00:16:37.440
approach to teach people is I'm going to talk

00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:39.639
to you about the problem that we're here to talk

00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:41.919
about. Then I'm going to explain to you why how

00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:43.899
I just talked to you about it was very effective.

00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:46.820
And then you're going to try to do what I just

00:16:46.820 --> 00:16:48.500
did using the framework that I just explained

00:16:48.500 --> 00:16:51.740
to you. That would be the main one. I like it.

00:16:52.389 --> 00:16:55.230
Yeah, yeah. So it's a bit of a sneak approach.

00:16:55.429 --> 00:16:57.929
You talk to them about, here's why I'm here,

00:16:57.950 --> 00:17:00.750
here's what we're doing today. But you do it

00:17:00.750 --> 00:17:02.750
in a way that models what you're going to teach

00:17:02.750 --> 00:17:05.190
them. And then, so once you've modeled it, you

00:17:05.190 --> 00:17:06.829
tell them, hey, I just modeled something. Let's

00:17:06.829 --> 00:17:09.509
deconstruct what I just did so you can understand

00:17:09.509 --> 00:17:13.170
why that worked. And then they get to apply it

00:17:13.170 --> 00:17:15.150
and try to do it themselves. So it's kind of,

00:17:15.170 --> 00:17:18.049
they watch first, then you explain what just

00:17:18.049 --> 00:17:20.250
happened, and then you encourage them to try

00:17:20.250 --> 00:17:23.569
it. Yeah. The thing about communication is that

00:17:23.569 --> 00:17:26.950
everybody already knows how to communicate. And

00:17:26.950 --> 00:17:29.049
if I go in, you know, so like take you, Chris,

00:17:29.109 --> 00:17:31.089
you work with these executives, like the reality

00:17:31.089 --> 00:17:33.630
is they're doing so well in the world, they can

00:17:33.630 --> 00:17:36.710
afford to hire you. Yes. Same with me. And so

00:17:36.710 --> 00:17:38.269
I always have this like a great deal of humility.

00:17:38.410 --> 00:17:41.490
I'm sure you're the same about like what I'm

00:17:41.490 --> 00:17:45.170
here to do. And to go in and foreground, like

00:17:45.170 --> 00:17:47.759
I'm going to make you better. I think that's

00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:49.579
an insane thing to say to somebody who's, to

00:17:49.579 --> 00:17:51.740
be honest, even alive as a communicator because

00:17:51.740 --> 00:17:55.819
people have family. You can do so much without

00:17:55.819 --> 00:18:00.200
ever meeting me in the world. And so I guess

00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:02.839
the way I've tried to come at this is, like you

00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:04.640
said, the word like a sneak or a surprise approach,

00:18:04.900 --> 00:18:07.140
which is to just kind of like have a conversation

00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:10.119
with people so their guard isn't up about this

00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:12.200
guy's trying to change what I'm doing and have

00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:13.940
them kind of be into it and then be like, okay,

00:18:14.019 --> 00:18:17.440
so did you enjoy that? I built that for you.

00:18:18.059 --> 00:18:20.619
Like that wasn't a spontaneous thing. And then

00:18:20.619 --> 00:18:22.940
what happened? And then great. So now there's

00:18:22.940 --> 00:18:24.960
the space that's opened up this curiosity. And

00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:28.140
then we can take that curiosity into learning

00:18:28.140 --> 00:18:30.599
about, you know, whatever communication challenge

00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.759
we're here for. Right. I like that. I like that

00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.279
structure and that flow. It's very non -threatening

00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:39.799
and it eases people into it. And it also, there's

00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:41.519
a little surprise, which is kind of the hook.

00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:43.119
When you say, hey, that thing that just felt

00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.619
very organic and natural. I planned that and

00:18:45.619 --> 00:18:48.160
I built it on purpose. And do you want to see

00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:50.819
what's behind the curtain? Yeah. I guess it's

00:18:50.819 --> 00:18:53.140
also kind of fun for me to make. Yeah. As opposed

00:18:53.140 --> 00:18:55.180
to like a lecture. I saw this, I read this piece

00:18:55.180 --> 00:18:58.200
once. It was an interview with David Blaine.

00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.680
The street magician. Yeah. And he said the gist

00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:03.900
of it was, so he does this like up close sleight

00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:05.880
of hand magic. And he said, now that this is

00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:07.779
on YouTube, so his whole life is on YouTube.

00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:09.759
That's his whole career, which means people can

00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:12.960
go back and watch it frame by frame every time.

00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:15.500
Everybody can figure out how the trick works

00:19:15.500 --> 00:19:18.720
every time. That's over for him. So what he has

00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.259
to do is design tricks that are so good, the

00:19:21.259 --> 00:19:26.539
explanation blows your mind. Right. And I think

00:19:26.539 --> 00:19:29.460
that's kind of what I'm trying to do. I like

00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:32.279
that. It's not just the sleight of hand. You're

00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:34.700
going to marvel at the ingenuity of the design

00:19:34.700 --> 00:19:37.500
of this thing. Yeah, that's what keeps people,

00:19:37.700 --> 00:19:40.779
because people can figure out the trick. So the

00:19:40.779 --> 00:19:43.099
trick itself is not enough anymore, even though

00:19:43.099 --> 00:19:45.240
it's very amazing and smooth when he does it.

00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:48.519
Yeah. There has to be this next thing. And communication,

00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:50.799
I think, is kind of like this. People can figure

00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:52.400
out how to have great conversations without me.

00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:56.779
Yeah. They already are. So I liked what you said

00:19:56.779 --> 00:20:01.220
earlier. You mentioned a focus on helping people

00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:03.319
be present and connect with one another. And

00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:06.900
so it's less outcome -driven and goal -oriented,

00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:11.000
and it's more about being than doing. And just

00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:12.720
kind of trusting that if you get the being right

00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:14.660
and the connection, then whatever flows from

00:20:14.660 --> 00:20:17.339
that is probably going to be enjoyable, useful,

00:20:17.740 --> 00:20:20.640
rewarding. It'll be something that people want

00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:25.559
more of in their lives. I think so. Yeah. And

00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:29.539
so how do you convey that to people? How do you

00:20:29.539 --> 00:20:32.940
help people get better at being present and connected

00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:36.119
with one another? Because it's a thing that we're

00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:40.029
not taught how to do. And it's even like... you

00:20:40.029 --> 00:20:42.670
hear more and more of the language around this

00:20:42.670 --> 00:20:45.650
it's starting to become more common out there

00:20:45.650 --> 00:20:47.390
in the world but for a lot of people it's like

00:20:47.390 --> 00:20:50.630
even talking about being and connecting and being

00:20:50.630 --> 00:20:53.470
present is a little foreign to them so how do

00:20:53.470 --> 00:20:55.069
you take people from wherever they're at and

00:20:55.069 --> 00:20:57.890
give them a bit more of this before we do that

00:20:57.890 --> 00:20:59.750
can i just ask a question what's an example of

00:20:59.750 --> 00:21:01.410
like this i think you're right but what's an

00:21:01.410 --> 00:21:03.109
example of this like language being out in the

00:21:03.109 --> 00:21:05.150
world like where have you seen it kind of trickling

00:21:05.150 --> 00:21:08.160
around so When I was first exposed to anything

00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:10.680
like this, it was all brand new to me. Like this

00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:14.660
idea of how present are you? And let's do this

00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:16.559
little exercise to get more present. I was like,

00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:18.500
what the hell are they talking about? Which shows

00:21:18.500 --> 00:21:21.240
you the degree to which I was in my head at that

00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:23.079
stage in my life. I had no idea what they were

00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:25.779
even meant by being present. And then I had to

00:21:25.779 --> 00:21:27.839
have the felt experience of it. And that's like,

00:21:27.940 --> 00:21:31.299
oh, oh, this, this is a very different experience

00:21:31.299 --> 00:21:35.230
from my norm, which is I'm just. My focus is

00:21:35.230 --> 00:21:38.269
mostly on the thoughts in my head, but I had

00:21:38.269 --> 00:21:43.009
to feel it to get it. Hmm. That's interesting.

00:21:43.269 --> 00:21:46.910
That's interesting. You know, I don't know if

00:21:46.910 --> 00:21:49.569
this is a great answer, but what's coming up

00:21:49.569 --> 00:21:52.130
for me, at least as I think about this, is circling

00:21:52.130 --> 00:21:54.890
back to what I said before about trying to make

00:21:54.890 --> 00:21:57.170
something that I find meaningful and then hope

00:21:57.170 --> 00:21:59.430
enough people are into it, that it resonates

00:21:59.430 --> 00:22:01.970
with enough people. And so I think... I've never

00:22:01.970 --> 00:22:04.210
written a session or done sessions that was primarily

00:22:04.210 --> 00:22:06.769
about like, let's have presence, let's have connection.

00:22:07.390 --> 00:22:10.769
But I tried to just like be a person publicly

00:22:10.769 --> 00:22:13.990
and when people encounter me, and I guess use

00:22:13.990 --> 00:22:17.470
these words or like, lean into this, pay attention

00:22:17.470 --> 00:22:19.869
to this. And as a way of almost like, not necessarily

00:22:19.869 --> 00:22:22.130
screening out people, but just making it like

00:22:22.130 --> 00:22:24.490
pretty clear what's about to happen if we do

00:22:24.490 --> 00:22:27.130
work together. And also what's not going to happen.

00:22:27.369 --> 00:22:29.529
So what's not going to happen is a sort of like

00:22:29.529 --> 00:22:33.049
extremely structured, didactic, outcome oriented,

00:22:33.329 --> 00:22:37.190
control based like view of communication. Like

00:22:37.190 --> 00:22:39.210
I want people to do this thing and how can I

00:22:39.210 --> 00:22:41.289
communicate in a way that controls the outcome?

00:22:42.950 --> 00:22:44.990
So it's not the one weird trick to get anything

00:22:44.990 --> 00:22:48.069
you want from somebody or the five part framework

00:22:48.069 --> 00:22:51.470
to win any negotiation. I understand why people

00:22:51.470 --> 00:22:53.849
market things that way. But also like if I was

00:22:53.849 --> 00:22:55.869
amazing at persuasion. This session will cost

00:22:55.869 --> 00:22:58.289
a million dollars. Like, what are we doing here,

00:22:58.369 --> 00:23:03.390
guys? Right. Yeah. And so I guess there's a sense

00:23:03.390 --> 00:23:06.390
of which try to find people who are like predisposed

00:23:06.390 --> 00:23:08.009
to this. Because to be fair, like professional

00:23:08.009 --> 00:23:12.230
life is very much outcome oriented, right? What

00:23:12.230 --> 00:23:14.410
is the return on investment here? How can I,

00:23:14.450 --> 00:23:16.829
we have to make this thing. And so at some point,

00:23:16.869 --> 00:23:18.730
I got to get people to do this, do what we need

00:23:18.730 --> 00:23:20.529
to do to make our thing or do our work product.

00:23:20.609 --> 00:23:24.000
Like, it's fine. Like, this is very fair. And

00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.500
so there's a subset of people, though, that are

00:23:25.500 --> 00:23:27.599
more amenable to different ways of thinking about

00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:30.259
this. Sometimes they may just be like highly

00:23:30.259 --> 00:23:32.700
functional in other areas. So they're not sweating,

00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:35.319
making things happen in particular ways. But

00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:39.480
finding people who are a bit more open to notions

00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:41.579
of presence or connection, and then just like

00:23:41.579 --> 00:23:44.240
spending a lot of time talking about how sometimes

00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:46.799
it's better not to control the elk. One of the

00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.799
most meaningful things I've ever sort of realized

00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:51.799
is that getting a hard yes out of somebody. is

00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:54.259
great, but it is equally valuable to get a hard

00:23:54.259 --> 00:23:58.099
no. That's a great outcome. I don't want to work

00:23:58.099 --> 00:24:01.279
with somebody who isn't super into me, my work,

00:24:01.299 --> 00:24:04.480
for example. And once I realized that that was

00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:08.119
just as valuable for me, the pressure to interact

00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:12.960
in a pitch conversation or work evaporated. And

00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:15.000
so then, of course, I end up being much better

00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:16.519
in these conversations because I'm not super

00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:19.559
scared. And to be honest, So the very first time

00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:21.259
I ever pitched work, this is how I learned this.

00:24:21.660 --> 00:24:23.900
10 years ago, I went down to a law firm and I

00:24:23.900 --> 00:24:25.539
pitched the session and the person was like,

00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:28.019
amazing, we'd love to work with you. The very

00:24:28.019 --> 00:24:30.559
next day, I pitched for the second time. So different

00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:33.220
law firm, different person, same pitch. And this

00:24:33.220 --> 00:24:36.119
time they said, I think you've made a mistake

00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:40.319
starting your business. That's a direct quote.

00:24:40.420 --> 00:24:42.599
That's the hardest no I've ever received in my

00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:46.099
life. Yeah. So that was very challenging, right?

00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:49.039
But. Do you want to guess which of those people

00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:50.900
has sent me the most work in the last 10 years?

00:24:52.099 --> 00:24:55.940
Neither. Neither of those people has ever called

00:24:55.940 --> 00:25:01.460
me. And yet here I am. Right. I don't need to

00:25:01.460 --> 00:25:03.460
convince everyone to be successful. And even

00:25:03.460 --> 00:25:06.420
the people, it looks like I convinced also not

00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:11.220
necessarily convinced. So all I want to do is

00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:13.960
be a version of myself that people can meaningfully

00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:17.579
connect with. And eventually those people. are

00:25:17.579 --> 00:25:19.880
going to work with me. And if there's enough

00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:21.920
of them to sustain me, great. And if not, then

00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:25.099
I'll go do something else. But I don't know,

00:25:25.099 --> 00:25:27.599
that's very struck with me for the last 10 years.

00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:30.200
I think that's great. It reminds me a lot of

00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:34.440
one of my coaching mentors had this bit on business

00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.460
development and how to handle a consultation

00:25:37.460 --> 00:25:40.319
or a sales call. And the mindset that he offered

00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:42.680
was, don't approach it like you're trying to

00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:44.720
talk somebody into something or convince them

00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.880
to work with you. Take the position that there's

00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:50.220
already a good fit and a good reason for you

00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:53.019
to come together and exchange value or not. Like

00:25:53.019 --> 00:25:54.880
that's already just a fact out there in the world.

00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:58.140
And all you're doing on the call is discovering

00:25:58.140 --> 00:26:01.240
together whether that's true in this case or

00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:03.839
not. And so there's nothing to win at or lose

00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:06.059
at or succeed at or fail at. You're just trying

00:26:06.059 --> 00:26:08.579
to get to what's already true. And whatever it

00:26:08.579 --> 00:26:11.299
is, is fine as long as you get there. Yeah, which

00:26:11.299 --> 00:26:12.960
is the exact same way, at least for me. That's

00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:15.369
every meaningful. relationship you have in your

00:26:15.369 --> 00:26:21.990
life yeah right yeah and so this is presence

00:26:21.990 --> 00:26:28.650
and connection right and i'm hearing a real undertone

00:26:28.650 --> 00:26:32.130
of like genuine curiosity as well yeah absolutely

00:26:32.130 --> 00:26:36.390
um absolutely this conversation itself has taken

00:26:36.390 --> 00:26:38.109
a very different turn from how i thought it would

00:26:38.109 --> 00:26:39.650
but i love it i love the way that this is uh

00:26:39.650 --> 00:26:42.970
unfolding it feels very it just feels very organic

00:26:44.109 --> 00:26:46.470
Well, what have we missed? We should cover the

00:26:46.470 --> 00:26:51.650
things you thought. So the work that you do is

00:26:51.650 --> 00:26:53.710
helping people tell better stories. And I think

00:26:53.710 --> 00:26:56.549
that that's a great skill set for anybody to

00:26:56.549 --> 00:26:59.109
have because telling stories is something that

00:26:59.109 --> 00:27:03.069
we just do on a day to day basis. How was your

00:27:03.069 --> 00:27:05.230
day? Like you're telling me a story when I ask

00:27:05.230 --> 00:27:07.950
you how your day was. And if it's a genuine question,

00:27:08.049 --> 00:27:10.430
I'm actually interested. Then there's a skill

00:27:10.430 --> 00:27:13.799
set that every person can develop to tell. better

00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:15.819
stories and be more impactful in the small amount

00:27:15.819 --> 00:27:18.220
of time that they take. Like if there's one thing

00:27:18.220 --> 00:27:21.079
for storytelling that's important, what would

00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:23.440
you say that is? The one thing that I always

00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:30.960
think about is honesty and meaningful. So the

00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:32.559
most important thing I think for storytelling

00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:36.240
is to share something meaningful. And, you know,

00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.180
going to a storytelling workshop or reading,

00:27:38.259 --> 00:27:40.279
you know, there are millions of books about storytelling.

00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:44.500
What you get out of those experiences is support

00:27:44.500 --> 00:27:47.680
and guidance in how to find things that are interesting

00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:49.400
that might make for good stories and then tools

00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:52.819
for developing them into good stories. But all

00:27:52.819 --> 00:27:54.500
you really need, the most important thing is

00:27:54.500 --> 00:27:56.000
you have something meaningful to share. And I

00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:57.660
always say to people, once you find something

00:27:57.660 --> 00:27:59.799
meaningful, you can just offer it to another

00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:02.680
person. And it's not going to be super polished.

00:28:02.779 --> 00:28:05.039
It's not going to be the most efficient telling

00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:08.019
of the tale and so on. But that's okay. Stories

00:28:08.019 --> 00:28:10.180
get better over time. Storytellers get better

00:28:10.180 --> 00:28:12.109
over time. I've been telling some of the same

00:28:12.109 --> 00:28:15.349
stories in sessions for years. And I think they

00:28:15.349 --> 00:28:17.109
were pretty good when I started. And they're

00:28:17.109 --> 00:28:19.869
better now, different but better. And it'll be

00:28:19.869 --> 00:28:22.170
five years from now, it'll be the same. But what

00:28:22.170 --> 00:28:26.470
really connects people, it's the meaning. It's

00:28:26.470 --> 00:28:28.289
the significance of what it is that you're sharing.

00:28:28.490 --> 00:28:30.549
It's not the sort of bells and whistles, the

00:28:30.549 --> 00:28:32.569
jokes at the beginning or the plot twist that

00:28:32.569 --> 00:28:34.250
you build in and so on. Those are really nice,

00:28:34.369 --> 00:28:39.009
right? But if there isn't a core... like some

00:28:39.009 --> 00:28:40.730
sort of like heart truth there that you're trying

00:28:40.730 --> 00:28:43.309
to share with people, then you won't have a heart

00:28:43.309 --> 00:28:45.109
truth connection. That's maybe the way to say

00:28:45.109 --> 00:28:47.809
it. Right. So taking the performance out of it

00:28:47.809 --> 00:28:50.410
and just being genuine. Doing your best to do

00:28:50.410 --> 00:28:53.230
that. Yeah. Yeah. That tracks for me. Like anytime

00:28:53.230 --> 00:28:55.990
when someone's being genuine, it resonates. I

00:28:55.990 --> 00:28:57.890
feel it. And when someone's being performative,

00:28:57.950 --> 00:29:00.349
I just want to stop them and say like, hey, can

00:29:00.349 --> 00:29:03.009
you just be honest with me? Because that creates

00:29:03.009 --> 00:29:06.529
distance. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We talked

00:29:06.529 --> 00:29:08.230
about this a bit, I think, in a prior episode,

00:29:08.289 --> 00:29:10.970
and it shows up in the work we do with the men's

00:29:10.970 --> 00:29:13.130
work and kind of training other trainers and

00:29:13.130 --> 00:29:16.329
things where it's not about putting on a show

00:29:16.329 --> 00:29:18.630
and then you're in presentation or performance

00:29:18.630 --> 00:29:21.829
mode. It's about, can you get in touch with what's

00:29:21.829 --> 00:29:24.269
meaningful about this for yourself and allow

00:29:24.269 --> 00:29:26.990
yourself to experience those feelings deeply

00:29:26.990 --> 00:29:29.950
in real time in the presence of another person?

00:29:30.069 --> 00:29:33.009
Yes. So you're sharing a deeper part of yourself

00:29:33.009 --> 00:29:36.519
with them, and then that's this palpable, thing

00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:39.180
that everybody can feel and you get the goosebumps

00:29:39.180 --> 00:29:42.200
and the little hairs on the back of your arms

00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:44.160
or neck will stand up and there's a, something

00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:46.759
happens in those moments. Yeah. That's what I

00:29:46.759 --> 00:29:49.599
call dropping in, right? Just like getting into,

00:29:49.660 --> 00:29:52.119
if you're going to tell me a story, bring me

00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:54.940
into it, drop into it so that I'm there with

00:29:54.940 --> 00:29:59.160
you rather than you just reading me a grocery

00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:01.440
list of, oh yeah, here are all the things that

00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:04.460
I did today or I did that day. Yeah. This happened,

00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:06.599
this happened, this happened. No, that really

00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:09.200
resonates Chris. And I, the, maybe this is another

00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:12.200
tip, but, um, it's significant that what you're

00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:14.140
talking about is in the sort of men's work. So

00:30:14.140 --> 00:30:16.740
it's like far removed in a way from my job, somebody's

00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:19.720
job sort of thing. But I think if you're, you

00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:21.480
know, when you come to work in a professional

00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:24.019
context, when you are making a presentation and

00:30:24.019 --> 00:30:27.460
so on, it's the same work of connection. And

00:30:27.460 --> 00:30:30.059
so I actually, like, I guess what I try to do

00:30:30.059 --> 00:30:32.900
and what I try to coach people to do is. Even

00:30:32.900 --> 00:30:34.660
if you're talking about your job, you got it

00:30:34.660 --> 00:30:36.700
and you're going to prepare something to share.

00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:38.980
So it is a performance. It's a show. You can

00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:41.400
still prepare something that is built around

00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:43.940
your like deep meaning you're in there, you feel

00:30:43.940 --> 00:30:46.779
it. And the fact that you just happen to crystallize

00:30:46.779 --> 00:30:49.079
it into a script or some speaking notes, doesn't

00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:51.039
change the fact that it's like still deeply meaningful

00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:53.420
for you. And the audience can still have that

00:30:53.420 --> 00:30:55.980
connection, whether you're doing it in like spontaneously

00:30:55.980 --> 00:30:59.559
in the moment, or like 100 times, right? That's

00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:02.900
a solo. right it's american pie is meaningful

00:31:02.900 --> 00:31:04.539
even though it's written down and you've heard

00:31:04.539 --> 00:31:06.980
it a million times right like because it's when

00:31:06.980 --> 00:31:09.799
it was created it came from this place of like

00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:12.960
connection and resonance and presence and reflection

00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:16.420
and heart space and things like this and even

00:31:16.420 --> 00:31:18.380
in an individual performance of the same song

00:31:18.380 --> 00:31:20.019
like patrick i'm sure you've had this experience

00:31:20.019 --> 00:31:22.799
some shows you're really feeling it yeah for

00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:24.920
sure and it's a it's a better show and it's a

00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:27.059
more powerful performance and the audience feels

00:31:27.059 --> 00:31:29.460
it more impactfully or Or if you watch a show

00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:31.980
and the band is kind of phoning it in, that's

00:31:31.980 --> 00:31:34.359
not as satisfying an experience that's shared

00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:38.779
because the depth of presence and the depth of

00:31:38.779 --> 00:31:42.440
feeling isn't there. Context matters, but where

00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:44.079
you're coming from matters. I mean, Ozzy Osbourne

00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:46.480
just had his last show, what, two, three weeks

00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:48.759
ago? Right. And the final song was Mama, I'm

00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:51.819
Coming Home. Oh, wow. And he's sitting there

00:31:51.819 --> 00:31:54.839
in this beautiful leather throne that he had

00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:58.079
constructed for himself. a week away from death

00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:00.480
not that anybody knew at the time but we knew

00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:03.680
he was sick and delivers this just heart -wrenching

00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:06.079
performance of of the song mama i'm going home

00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:08.759
and yeah like you can you can feel it just in

00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:10.460
the video you don't you don't have to be there

00:32:10.460 --> 00:32:12.940
live with him you can just powerful it's powerful

00:32:12.940 --> 00:32:17.039
in itself so yeah yeah one of the things we we

00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:19.500
try to do to the extent that it makes sense is

00:32:19.500 --> 00:32:23.460
leave our listeners with something they can take

00:32:23.460 --> 00:32:28.119
away and apply in some way and sometimes that's

00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:30.700
in the form of like a you know a five -part framework

00:32:30.700 --> 00:32:33.059
or something tactical and structured but sometimes

00:32:33.059 --> 00:32:36.759
it's more on the on the level of mindset or like

00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:40.000
a a shift they can make in how they think about

00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:44.500
or go about something right that that they can

00:32:44.500 --> 00:32:47.299
use in some way so i've framed that intentionally

00:32:47.299 --> 00:32:50.700
as in as broad open terms as possible but if

00:32:50.700 --> 00:32:53.140
there was a nugget that people could take from

00:32:53.140 --> 00:32:55.279
this that would be like stolen from your brain

00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:57.019
and gifted to our audience? What would that be?

00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:01.059
Well, I think we, even this audience, we co -create

00:33:01.059 --> 00:33:02.859
these things. So it's stolen from all of us in

00:33:02.859 --> 00:33:05.680
this conversation. But okay, here's something.

00:33:06.180 --> 00:33:08.099
I'll use public speaking as the context, but

00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:09.660
this works for any other sort of conversation

00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:13.359
or meeting. Is to think about the last time you

00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:16.059
had a really good presentation or performance,

00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:18.779
a really good interaction. And so think about

00:33:18.779 --> 00:33:20.920
this experience and then get very granular about

00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:24.400
why do you think it went so well? So think about

00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:27.599
your own experience and just notice like what

00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:29.500
happened? How did you prepare? Who was in the

00:33:29.500 --> 00:33:32.180
room? What were you talking about? Anything else

00:33:32.180 --> 00:33:34.500
that might sort of contribute on reflection to

00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:37.579
like this going very well. Then once you get

00:33:37.579 --> 00:33:39.380
granular in this experience, you can think about

00:33:39.380 --> 00:33:41.980
a few other situations that went really well

00:33:41.980 --> 00:33:43.960
through the same sort of reflective analysis.

00:33:44.500 --> 00:33:47.259
And then you look for pattern. And you can start

00:33:47.259 --> 00:33:49.319
to notice things like, oh, when I prepare in

00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:51.400
this specific way, or I talk to this sort of

00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:54.579
person. or what the topic is and so on. That

00:33:54.579 --> 00:33:57.099
tends to go very well for me. And then you can

00:33:57.099 --> 00:34:01.599
just systemize this preparation. So all the times

00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:03.240
when you interact with stuff without learning

00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:05.059
anything from anybody new, any sort of special

00:34:05.059 --> 00:34:06.759
skills and so on, you can just look at your own

00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:10.059
experience, figure out with some level of granularity

00:34:10.059 --> 00:34:13.039
what supports you, and then just roll that out

00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:15.960
in more and more interactions. Like how can you

00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:19.289
get intentional for setting yourself up for success,

00:34:19.409 --> 00:34:21.590
whether that's a conversation with a person in

00:34:21.590 --> 00:34:23.590
your family, work conversations are maybe the

00:34:23.590 --> 00:34:25.429
most discreet, you know, their calendar and you

00:34:25.429 --> 00:34:27.869
can sort of plan and so on. But like, yeah, you're

00:34:27.869 --> 00:34:29.469
going to see a friend, you're going on a date.

00:34:29.570 --> 00:34:33.050
Like, how can you support yourself in engaging

00:34:33.050 --> 00:34:34.889
the way that you want? And I think you can learn

00:34:34.889 --> 00:34:36.550
all of this from your own experience just by

00:34:36.550 --> 00:34:40.190
thinking about your past. Kind of reverse engineering

00:34:40.190 --> 00:34:42.670
your own success and just being conscious about

00:34:42.670 --> 00:34:44.630
deconstructing it and doing more of what works.

00:34:45.799 --> 00:34:48.199
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it really is the case that

00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:51.019
everybody's already great at communicating. And

00:34:51.019 --> 00:34:54.039
so I think you can learn a lot from just looking

00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:56.420
at yourself and being like, I mean, this is really

00:34:56.420 --> 00:34:58.159
how we learn to speak at all, right? We just

00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:00.679
imitate the words here. We notice the reactions

00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:02.519
it gets. We speak more of those, less of other

00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:06.000
things. So I think we carry within us the ability

00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.780
to do all of the things that you might otherwise

00:35:08.780 --> 00:35:10.559
pay somebody to teach you to do. It's sometimes

00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:12.659
a lot quicker to get somebody to come in and

00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:15.929
give you a framework or something. you've got

00:35:15.929 --> 00:35:18.289
it. We've all got it within us, I think. Yeah.

00:35:19.190 --> 00:35:22.170
It reminds me a little bit of something I'll

00:35:22.170 --> 00:35:24.889
do sometimes. I was on a call earlier today with

00:35:24.889 --> 00:35:26.929
someone who was dealing with a little bit of

00:35:26.929 --> 00:35:29.690
imposter syndrome, has recently been kind of

00:35:29.690 --> 00:35:31.690
promoted and invited into this executive circle

00:35:31.690 --> 00:35:35.090
professionally and was noticing the feedback

00:35:35.090 --> 00:35:37.289
she had gotten was, we want you to contribute

00:35:37.289 --> 00:35:40.230
more and be more opinionated and speak up. And

00:35:40.230 --> 00:35:43.409
she found herself hesitant. And one of the fears

00:35:43.409 --> 00:35:45.989
was, this interaction happened where she had

00:35:45.989 --> 00:35:47.489
expressed an opinion on something and then this

00:35:47.489 --> 00:35:49.590
executive said, oh, I completely disagree with

00:35:49.590 --> 00:35:53.530
you. And she felt kind of shut down. But as it

00:35:53.530 --> 00:35:54.909
played out, it was like, oh, it was disagreeing

00:35:54.909 --> 00:35:56.349
over just a point of fact and it didn't really

00:35:56.349 --> 00:35:58.210
matter, but she was just grappling with this,

00:35:58.289 --> 00:36:00.550
the dissonance between the actual significance

00:36:00.550 --> 00:36:02.889
of it and the emotional response that she felt.

00:36:03.670 --> 00:36:05.610
And so we looked in a completely different domain

00:36:05.610 --> 00:36:07.909
of life. She's also a mom and has a four -year

00:36:07.909 --> 00:36:10.780
-old. because we were talking about getting to

00:36:10.780 --> 00:36:13.739
this place of non -reactivity where someone else's

00:36:13.739 --> 00:36:16.139
reaction is meaningless to you. It's just that's

00:36:16.139 --> 00:36:18.960
how they're showing up and you can be with it

00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:21.980
and it doesn't have to bring with it this extra

00:36:21.980 --> 00:36:24.500
weight or meaning. She's like, I do that all

00:36:24.500 --> 00:36:27.340
the time with my four -year -old because they

00:36:27.340 --> 00:36:28.760
can have a tantrum and they're freaking out.

00:36:28.860 --> 00:36:30.559
And it's like, my job isn't to react to that.

00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:33.199
It's to hold space and guide this interaction

00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:35.880
through to something good. And it's like, yeah,

00:36:35.900 --> 00:36:37.559
perfect. Then you already know exactly what to

00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:40.920
do. Just replace that four -year -old with a

00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:43.280
40 -year -old. Change the wardrobe slightly,

00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:47.019
but you got this. So that's a long -winded way

00:36:47.019 --> 00:36:50.059
of saying a lot of the best insights that I find

00:36:50.059 --> 00:36:53.300
come up in coaching contexts are pointing someone

00:36:53.300 --> 00:36:55.320
to something they are already good at. They just

00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:58.400
haven't thought to apply it in this particular

00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:03.019
domain. Yes, yes, yes. Let's put that on a t

00:37:03.019 --> 00:37:05.949
-shirt. We'd have to make it more concise probably,

00:37:06.030 --> 00:37:09.650
but I'm game. We can start selling shirts. We'll

00:37:09.650 --> 00:37:12.449
workshop it. Totally. Anything else we haven't

00:37:12.449 --> 00:37:14.510
covered that would be worth touching on while

00:37:14.510 --> 00:37:17.730
we're at it? I mean, I feel like I've talked

00:37:17.730 --> 00:37:19.989
a lot. You guys haven't had a chance. That was

00:37:19.989 --> 00:37:23.670
the idea. Okay. No, I mean, I've been very grateful

00:37:23.670 --> 00:37:25.789
to be here. I feel really honored that you guys

00:37:25.789 --> 00:37:27.489
would want to spend time with me and ask me these

00:37:27.489 --> 00:37:29.170
questions. It takes such an interest. That really

00:37:29.170 --> 00:37:31.159
makes me feel special. Thank you. Thanks for

00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:33.260
joining us. We'd started to become sick of hearing

00:37:33.260 --> 00:37:35.099
our own voices exclusively, and we wanted to

00:37:35.099 --> 00:37:38.219
bring a fresh voice into the conversation and

00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:41.059
a fresh perspective. And you came to mind right

00:37:41.059 --> 00:37:44.340
away. So it was great to have you on. Where can

00:37:44.340 --> 00:37:45.980
people find you if they want to learn more about

00:37:45.980 --> 00:37:47.800
what you do, if they're interested in possibly

00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:50.260
working with you? What are your coordinates?

00:37:50.900 --> 00:37:52.820
Oh, thanks for asking. There is very limited

00:37:52.820 --> 00:37:56.360
coordinates. One is tellpeople .ca, T -E -L -L

00:37:56.360 --> 00:37:59.519
-P -E -O -P -L -E .ca. I'm sure this will be

00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:02.590
in the show notes. And LinkedIn. That's it. Those

00:38:02.590 --> 00:38:05.349
are the only two. We will put both your LinkedIn

00:38:05.349 --> 00:38:09.070
link and your website in the show notes for people.

00:38:09.289 --> 00:38:10.710
So if you're interested in working with Chris

00:38:10.710 --> 00:38:12.929
or just finding out more about what he does,

00:38:13.050 --> 00:38:16.909
reach out there. There's so many more questions

00:38:16.909 --> 00:38:19.210
or directions we could go. We might have to have

00:38:19.210 --> 00:38:21.389
you back on at some point if you're willing to

00:38:21.389 --> 00:38:24.349
grant us more of your time. Well, that's very

00:38:24.349 --> 00:38:27.429
kind, Chris. Anytime, man. I appreciate it. Yeah.

00:38:27.469 --> 00:38:29.309
Thanks for being here with us. We really appreciate

00:38:29.309 --> 00:38:32.019
your time. And for all the listeners, as always,

00:38:32.059 --> 00:38:34.320
we hope this was useful and thanks for tuning

00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:34.480
in.